If Zarqawi is captured, that would NOT be good news for liberals, because that would drive up Bush's poll numbers!

But like it has been said before: good news for America, is bad news for liberals.

David, I don't have time right now to read your post (but I will), but responding to your headline:

"Would Zarqawi's Death Help Bush--Or Not?"

Well, if Rove has it gamed that it would help, Zarqawi is dead. But, hasn't he been *dead* way more than once already? I forget. Whatever.

How many times can that guy be captured or killed? Gullible people like Tim L believe everything they hear on TV, even if it's a rerun! Z is dead and so is Osama, get over it tim!

Saladin, you believe every website you read! But the thing is Saladin, ANYBODY can make a website and say what they want, and any stupid person like you can believe them.

Mr. David Corn,

Great post, very good insights and perspective.

Poll numbers will bottom out, they cannot get much lower. It will never be able to un-connect the dots that have been connected by the 7 of 10 Americans. If they got the boogeyman, they will have to invent another.

"Getting" OBL will not reverse the lies, errors, etc. of this misadministration.

Thanks for all of your work.

Kirk

Zarqawi's been "dead" so often he oughta be a comic book character. If he is dead or captured, nothing will change because a score of others will jump up to take his place. No rebel is indispensable to the rebellion. Would killing Ho Chi Minh have stopped the North Vietnamese from fighting? To the Iraqi rebels, as to the Vietnamese before them, they are the Patriots, we're the Redcoats, and the natives who side with us are the Tories. Radical Islam, like Communism before it, merely provides a rhetorical framework for the actual passion, which is plain old nationalism, tribalism even, "us good, them bad"."Same as it ever was, same as it ever was, same as it ever was..."

Feeling my lifetime piling up, Ivory Bill Woodpecker

How convenient that Z might be dead -- again

Bush said in China :

"I am confident we will succeed in Iraq. I'm confident that the Iraqi forces will be trained; I am confident the political process will slowly, but surely, marginalize those that are trying to stop the march of democracy. And I also know that we have got to make sure that Iraq does not become a safe haven for terrorists. It's very important for -- during this debate to listen to the words of Zawahiri, who's the number-two man of al Qaeda, where he has made it very clear that his intention, and the intention of his henchman, Zarqawi, is to drive us out of Iraq before we have completed the mission."

tim, you have no idea what I read, calling me stupid does not prove your point. Show me the evidence that these boogeymen are alive and caused any of the harm that is blamed on them. I will show proof that the opposite is true.

I wonder how many times Doofus Maximus had to kowtow to his Chinese creditors, lest they smash our country's economy by calling in our debts to them. Thanks to the monumentally irresponsible and asinine fiscal policies of modern "conservatism", the Middle Kingdom owns our genitals now, and not in any happy fun way, either. We are all Ned Beatty now.

Squealing louder, Ivory Bill Woodpecker

Ivory Bill, the Iraqi rebels just want the invaders to get out of their country. Just like we wanted England to get out of ours back in the day. They want us out, we want us out, so, what the hell are we still doing there? I guess this is democracy, Amerikan style!

February 09, 2004
Panetta Said Bush Did Not Lie About Intel

Leon E. Panetta appearing on C-SPAN's Washington Journal this Monday morning ( 10-28-03 8:20 AM EST ) said that he was in the White House and that President Clinton received the same intelligence information about the danger of Iraq's WMD's as President Bush did. He believes that President Clinton did what he thought was best and that President Bush did what he thought was best. Panetta was responding to a caller about the Iraq situation. He stated that either there was a massive intelligence failure or the intelligence community was lied to or both.

Panetta is a former Democratic congressman, the former Clinton White House Director of OMB, and Clinton's former Chief of Staff. He is saying that Bush was not lying and that there is no Neocon/Zionist conspiracy.

He joins many other moderate Democrats, foreign policy experts, and Nobel Peace laureates who have maintained that Iraq possessed WMD's and the potential to use them. Despite what liberal Democrats, liberal journalists, communists, anti-Americans and other Bush haters have been claiming, President Bush was not lying.

Panetta reiterated what he said in February, " I think that Saddam Hussein is a threat in that part of the world. I think that, indeed, he should be required to disarm in fulfillment of the UN resolutions and also because for years we have basically known that he's had weapons of mass destruction. (link)

He also reiterated what many people in the Clinton administration said during their term and since. People like Madeline Albright who, in November 1999, said, "Hussein has chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies." Or Clinton's National Security Adviser Sandy Berger who said in Feburary 1998, "He (Saddam Hussein) will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."

IB, now you are speaking a language the poor trolls will never understand. We are doing GREAT! Debt? What debt? You can't see it from my house!!

Nobody gives a shit if Zarqawi is dead or not. People care about our soldiers and innocent Iraqis getting killed in this senseless war.

If the Bush Machine thinks they can get better poll numbers claiming that this inconsequential fella has been captured and/or killed, they are really desperate.

Colin Powell, February 2001: "[Saddam] has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors. So in effect, our policies have strengthened the security of the neighbors of Iraq."
Condoleeza Rice, July 2001: "We are able to keep his arms from him. His military forces have not been rebuilt."
------------
Clinton said this and they said that. condi and powell said the above, guess they were lying, once again! Or, not.

"they are really desperate"

Their desperation scares me more than OBL or Z-man.

Poll numbers will go up, and down and right and left. Polls cannot fix the failed policies nor can polls change the lies that took us to Iraq.

Everybody knows who started the Iraq invasion. Everybody knows what we were told and that it all turned out to be lies.

I wonder how crazy these guys will get with their collective backs against the wall.

Been pretty crazy so far, how bad will it get in full melt-down. Nixon wanted to use nukes. He never had the media.

capt

wow, if they haven't gotten zarqawi by now, they better get on it before he paddles over here with his wooden leg and mounts an insurrection of invisible propagandists or something, ya? -

here's a history of the bush administration in one sentence

November 20, 2005
latimes.com : National News Single page

THE CURVEBALL SAGA
How U.S. Fell Under the Spell of 'Curveball'

The Iraqi informant's German handlers say they had told U.S. officials that his information was 'not proven,' and were shocked when President Bush and Colin L. Powell used it in key prewar speeches.

By Bob Drogin and John Goetz, Special to The Times

BERLIN The German intelligence officials responsible for one of the most important informants on Saddam Hussein's suspected weapons of mass destruction say that the Bush administration and the CIA repeatedly exaggerated his claims during the run-up to the war in Iraq.

Five senior officials from Germany's Federal Intelligence Service, or BND, said in interviews with The Times that they warned U.S. intelligence authorities that the source, an Iraqi defector code-named Curveball, never claimed to produce germ weapons and never saw anyone else do so.

According to the Germans, President Bush mischaracterized Curveball's information when he warned before the war that Iraq had at least seven mobile factories brewing biological poisons. Then-Secretary of State Colin L. Powell also misstated Curveball's accounts in his prewar presentation to the United Nations on Feb. 5, 2003, the Germans said.

Curveball's German handlers for the last six years said his information was often vague, mostly secondhand and impossible to confirm.

"This was not substantial evidence," said a senior German intelligence official. "We made clear we could not verify the things he said."

An investigation by The Times based on interviews since May with about 30 current and former intelligence officials in the U.S., Germany, England, Iraq and the United Nations, as well as other experts, shows that U.S. bungling in the Curveball case was worse than official reports have disclosed.

The White House, for example, ignored evidence gathered by United Nations weapons inspectors shortly before the war that disproved Curveball's account. Bush and his aides issued increasingly dire warnings about Iraq's biological weapons before the war even though intelligence from Curveball had not changed in two years.

At the Central Intelligence Agency, officials embraced Curveball's account even though they could not confirm it or interview him until a year after the invasion. They ignored multiple warnings about his reliability before the war, punished in-house critics who provided proof that he had lied and refused to admit error until May 2004, 14 months after the invasion.

After the CIA vouched for Curveball's accounts, Bush declared in his 2003 State of the Union speech that Iraq had "mobile biological weapons labs" designed to produce "germ warfare agents." Bush cited the mobile germ factories in at least four prewar speeches and statements, and other world leaders repeated the charge.

Powell also highlighted Curveball's "eyewitness" account when he warned the United Nations Security Council on the eve of war that Iraq's mobile labs could brew enough weapons-grade microbes "in a single month to kill thousands upon thousands of people."

The senior BND officer who supervised Curveball's case said he was aghast when he watched Powell misstate Curveball's claims as a justification for war.
--------
Oh no, they never lied, this drunken idiot had everybody fooled! HAHAHAHA! That looks even WORSE than lying!

yelnats,
nah, we don't need to go there - order the dvd -

I've been thinking about perps/shills since you first brought it up, and I think there must be different cons at the same time - maybe one who is a perp in the power maneuver would be a shill in a larger, hard to fathom game - I just can't conceive of what the goals of any larger game would be - what's loftier than the PNAC goals? - a temple? or the supposed bilderberg plan? -

and what would happen if the one who's a perp & a shill found his machinations interfering with each other - I bet he would choose his smaller perp goals over the goals of any higher-ups and might even have a rocket sent thru the front door of the higher-up's house - ha. *x-files music AND twilight zone music at the same time*

If y'all will indulge me in going off topic--who else saw SNL's "Weekend Update" segment last show, including the footage of that psycho hose beast Elephascist congressBorg from Ohio impugning the patriotism of Rep. Murtha--probably with a fake message, knowing the Elephascists? The poor Borg looked like Bono in drag. I half expected her to burst into a spontaneous a cappella version of "New Year's Day".

Sal--have you checked your e-mail lately?

"So we're told this is the golden age/And gold is the reason for the wars we wage"---"New Year's Day", U2. "Black gold", in this case.

From where the streets have no name, Ivory Bill Woodpecker

to all trolls, please disregard that last article, as it is written by obvious Michael Moore type liberals! As Hajji would say, BWAAAAAHHHAAA!!

James--"The Invisible Propagandists" would be a great name for a rock band! (acronym: WBAGNFARB)

IB, yes I have checked my e-mail, but it's been so long sice I've heard from you I couldn't recall just who you were! Just joshin ya! Thanks for that.

"who else saw SNL's "Weekend Update" segment last show"

I have it recorded on my DVR!

capt

"...they are really desperate."---Caroline

That worries me. I hope the "football"--the locked case containing the nuclear launch codes--has been assigned to an officer who will have the stones to refuse orders from crazy men.

Ducking and covering, Ivory Bill Woodpecker

AOL poll as of 6PM Central
Do you think the White House misled the public in its case for war? Yes 70% No 30% Total Votes: 113,297
--------
This is the fourth informal poll I have seen on this subject, and the tally overwhelmingly states that the people are PISSED!

From SNL:

Judging from her outfit a 1970's gymnast.

HA!

capt

Oh, but Sal, that's the "librul media", doncha know! We all know how incorrigibly librul the owners and managers of giant corporations like AOL are!;)

BuzzFlash said a few days ago that Schmidt's outfit looked like she'd been mugged by a 4th of July napkin set, or something like that.---IBW

George Bush:World Class Monster

True evil does not develop in a vacuum.

Evil is arrogant. It has no conscience. It is utterly self-serving. It hides from the light and will attack, even destroy others to preserve its own demented delusions. It is an unrestrained sociopath, wallowing in the murky darkness of its own psychosis while endlessly rationalizing its terrible deeds. It infiltrates the weak-minded and subverts the weak of character.

Evil... creates a world of shadows - shadow play - shadow government. It lives by the lie.

"The Big Lie," once thought to be the exclusive purview of the Nazis, has become canonized in our form of government. And it is growing more perverse—more insidious. Like the Nazis before the fall of the Third Reich, we are a nation wallowing in the murky darkness of our own psychosis.

I can think of no contemporary American family more twisted and evil than the Bush dynasty.

*****end of clip*****

An interesting piece from a while back.

capt

Fourth of July disposable paper napkins.

TRANSCRIPT OF PRESIDENT'S PRIVATE MEETING WITH BRIEFLY ESTRANGED PATHOLOGICAL LIAR CHICKENHAWK SOULMATE AHMAD CHALABI

[BEGIN TRANSCRIPT]

AHMAD CHALABI: Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: Ayep.

AHMAD CHALABI: Thank you for taking the time to see me.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, I have a couple spare minutes...

AHMAD CHALABI: Again, thank you.

THE PRESIDENT: ...and Condi and Dick and everybody is all "Why won't you see him?" "He misses you." And "It's been a long time maybe he's changed."

AHMAD CHALABI: I have. I do miss you, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: Oh, no! Don't you try and sweet talk me. This Iraqgate stuff is all YOUR fault. You lied to me.

AHMAD CHALABI: Sir? I'm afraid I don't know what you mean.

THE PRESIDENT: Talk to the hand, camel breath. I totally remember that meeting where you made up all that stuff about nukular-anthrax-tipped intercontinental ballistic missiles pointed at Houston and Dollywood. And how American troops would be welcomed with open legs by throngs of super-hot Iraqazoid sluts throwing flowers and panties like they were front row at a Tom Jones gig. That stuff. Ring a bell?

AHMAD CHALABI: I remember the meeting you speak of, sir, but if you'll recall, these things were spoken not by myself, but by Mr. Wolfowitz and Mr. Cheney. I was merely the obsequious cockroach who nodded and said, "Whatever words you speak, my Neocon Puppermasters, I shall happily regurgitate publicly, just so long as you spell my name correctly on the seven-figure treasury checks."

THE PRESIDENT: Are you sure about that? I coulda sworn it was you...

*****end of clip*****

I had no idea there were transcripts for the secret meetings?

capt

We Must Hold the Scoundrels Accountable

by Paul Craig Roberts

Under the Nuremberg standard, it is a war crime to initiate military aggression.

It is a criminal act both in the U.S. and the UK to commit military forces to action under false pretenses.

Many aspects of the conduct of the war are criminal. Torture, murder of civilians, corruption in contracts. Prosecutors could build a list of charges against President George W. Bush, Vice President Richard Cheney, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, and Prime Minister Blair.

In England it is not Blair who is on trial for participating in what he knew was a wrongful act that has resulted in thousands of deaths. It is not the crimes committed in secret that get punished. The people who are punished are the ones who leak memos that reveal wrongdoing has occurred.

*****end of clip*****

An interesting piece.

capt

#18 (of James Ha)

A strange venn diagram of con games has been something in my mind, but I don't think it would be a command-control operation (i.e. centrally controlled) but like lovers the mutual opportunities and high overlapping goals build up and they decide that the differences will get worked out later. I think you probably agree with that based on the last part of your comment about a 'betrayal'.

I do not think PNAC alone provides the ultimate motive in the "psyche" of the highest level perps. Although this is where many or all may reside along with their highest level shills. I have to go back and read their site more completely to make sure, but I felt PNAC describes "means" and not "ends". They talk about 'America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.'

I believe them when they say it is America's unique role to bring about security and prosperity but I'm not assured that they are talking about America's security, prosperity and principles but possibly it could be that of a select group of people, social-class, political party (foreign or domestic)? So what are those values and principles, and whose prosperity needs to be protected? Are the they values and principles associated with a liberal constitutional governance such as one person/one vote, freedom of speech, due process, etc)? Ignoring any possible lip service about supporting the American people, who are they giving seats to at their table.. I can tell you it probably isn't advocates for the poor, workers, educators, etc. It also probably isn't anyone who "idealistically" believes that our nation is progressing with things like civil rights, and social security systems, and healthcare for all.

#73 (from Derrick Michael Reid a few threads back)

I added this after David Corn had moved on, but I was hoping to hear Derrick's thoughts on this, so just in case he is still around...

quoted from Derrick's earlier post:

What you might be missing is that for the war on terror will never be won until democracies in the middle east are be stood up to give all right to express greivences to governments that will sit on the islamo-facists. If you have "VISION", you must agree that saddam stood in the way to victory in that war, and the Iraq invasion was necessary.

First I assume that you have agreed that the war in Iraq does not directly lower the probability of being attacked on US soil, for you have not refuted my earlier statements.

You are now proposing a different justification for the War in Iraq. Your premise is that terrorism will subside if the west can do some nation building in the middle east by making them democratic (this is an offshoot reasoning of the Neocon PNAC). Your view is that going to war will help make these nations democratic, and therefore the war indirectly leads to reducing terrorism through war's ability to create democratic nations.

So the question now is does war with Iraq allow us to create democratic nations in the middle east (and thereby reduce terrorism).

First democracies are helpful but not sufficient, you mentioned the ability for individuals to express their grievances to the government. That really describes a liberal constitutional government (where liberal means rights to own property, due process, vote, etc). The Athenians were democractic but the rulers were autocratic while they held office. So your point is that we want the middle east nations to see human rights in the same way that we in the west have come to see them. If democracy was the only reason, then we in the US might not be too happy how a 1 person 1 vote election turned out because it might be very hostile to the US and western values.

I agree liberal constitutional governments is a major way to combat global terrorism, but that doesn't justify war as a means to bring it about.

I recommend reading The Rise of Illiberal Democracy by Fareed Zakaria, or at least checking out his web page at http://www.fareedzakaria.com/articles/other/democracy.html.

Liberal consitutional governments don't form overnight and cannot be propped up by an outside force. It takes a developing infrastructure, and experience to build up a liberal constitutional government mindset. When did the US become a democracy? It depends on one's point of view. All adults couldn't vote in the US until the 1920s, about 150 years after our constitution was formed and yet we naively think the arab world will readily pick up right where we are.

Each western nation took years to become a liberal constitutional government, in fact you might say they are all continuing a path of perfecting themselves as liberal constitutional governments. Again when the USA was first formed only landowners could vote, it wasn't until just before the civil war that non-landowners could vote, after the civil war it was blacks, and in the 1920s it was women.

How would we like it if other nations would have attacked us to force us to provide more liberties to the oppressed people when we didn't quite see it as oppression but was part of our culture and religion. The closest we had to that was the civil war and still took 100 years to really give the black people a right to vote.

So I really wouldn't bet much on a war to make Iraq or any nation a liberal constitutional government overnight... and there certainly other ways to influence nations to become so without war. That is how most of europe became liberal constitutional governments, it was out of jealousy of the success of England and later the USA. We could do a lot more economically then militarily to influence human rights.

Search Job Tracker:

Find out which companies in your area are exporting jobs, endangering workers' health or involved in cases of violations of workers' rights under the National Labor Relations Act. The database contains information on more than 60,000 companies nationwide. More on Job Tracker sources and data.

Enter your ZIP code, state or company name below, or search by specific industry to see the detailed information.

*****end of clip*****

Zip or state, kind of interesting.

capt

From McLaughlin Group's analysis of General Odom's comments about withdrawing from Iraq. Odom is respected in national intelligence.

His main point, the nine arguments cited to stay are reasons to leave.

1) withdrawal will create a civil war
Odom: a civil war is already happening, and will get worse with our presence

2) world against withdrawal
Odom: world support will be gained by withdrawal, the world is enjoying our pain in Iraq

3) withdrawal will embolden the insurgency
Odom: our current occupation emboldens the insurgency and there are many young angry Arabs as see the opportunitiy to cause pain to US soldiers as a great gain

4) Withdrawal will create a terrorist haven
Odom: Iraq is already worse then a haven it is a training ground

5) withdrawal invites Iranian influence in Iraq
Odom: our occupation increases Iranian influence in Iraq

6) withdrawal unreset will spread to other nations
Odom: unrest will spread if we stay

7) withdrawal will increase sunni/shitie clashes
Odom: more clashes are prompted by our staying, we are allowing them to get really well trained so that they can have a really bloody bloody conflict

8) iraq's military and police too unprepared
Odom: unpreparedness of military is not the problem, it is their disloyalty to the new government

9) talk of withdrawal is disloyal to the troops and worsens the morale
Odom: soldiers favor the questioning of the US/Iraq policy

White House doubts reports of Zarqawi death

BEIJING (AFX) - The White House said it was 'highly unlikely' that Al-Qaeda's leader in Iraq, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, had been killed.

White House spokesman Trent Duffy told Agence France-Presse in Beijing, as President George W Bush was wrapping up a trip to China, that the story was 'highly unlikely, not credible.'

Media reports yesterday said Zarqawi may have been among a group of insurgents killed in battle in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul on Saturday.

*****end of clip*****

They know it is unlikely. They either know he is dead or where he is.

Like I said if they killed the boogeyman they would have to come up with another. A hard sell now that 7 in 10 have come to grips with a bit of reality.

"Zarqawi is dead, long live Zarqawi"

All of that talk about catching Zarqawi's number two was a bunch of s**t. HA!

capt

Washington Post rebukes Bob Woodward

In a column highly critical of Woodward's conduct, Washington Post ombudsman Deborah Howell said the newspaper took a "hit to its credibility" and called for more oversight of Woodward's work.

"He has to operate under the rules that govern the rest of the staff -- even if he's rich and famous," Howell wrote of Woodward, one of the two Washington Post reporters famed for coverage of the 1970s Watergate scandal that brought down President Richard Nixon.

How We Got Into This Imperial Pickle: A PNAC Primer

Bernard Weiner
Co-Editor, The Crisis Papers
May 26, 2003

Some of the ideological roots of today's Bush Administration power-wielders could be traced back to political philosophers Leo Strauss and Albert Wohlstetter or to GOP rightist Barry Goldwater and his rabid anti-communist followers in the early-1960s. But, for simplicity's sake let's stick closer to our own time.

In the early-1990s, there was a group of ideologues and power-politicians on the fringe of the Republican Party's far-right. The members of this group in 1997 would found The Project for the New American Century (PNAC); their aim was to prepare for the day when the Republicans regained control of the White House -- and, it was hoped, the other two branches of government as well -- so that their vision of how the U.S. should move in the world would be in place and ready to go, straight off-the-shelf into official policy.

This PNAC group was led by such heavy hitters as Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, James Woolsey, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Bill Kristol, James Bolton, Zalmay M. Khalilzad, William Bennett, Dan Quayle, Jeb Bush, most of whom were movers-and-shakers in previous Administrations, then in power-exile, as it were, while Clinton was in the White House. But even given their reputations and clout, the views of this group were regarded as too extreme to be taken seriously by the mainstream conservatives that controlled the Republican Party.

*****end of clip*****

One of the better pieces about PNAC. The clip does not do justice to the whole piece.

capt

14-minute video of Lawrence Wilkerson on CNN/Wolf Blitzer

Jewish Leader Blasts 'Religious Right'

By KRISTEN HAYS, Associated Press Writer
Sat Nov 19, 6:07 PM ET

HOUSTON - The leader of the largest branch of American Judaism blasted conservative religious activists in a speech Saturday, calling them "zealots" who claim a "monopoly on God" while promoting anti-gay policies akin to Adolf Hitler's.

Rabbi Eric Yoffie, president of the liberal Union for Reform Judaism, said "religious right" leaders believe "unless you attend my church, accept my God and study my sacred text you cannot be a moral person."

"What could be more bigoted than to claim that you have a monopoly on God?" he said during the movement's national assembly in Houston, which runs through Sunday.

The audience of 5,000 responded to the speech with enthusiastic applause.

Yoffie did not mention evangelical Christians directly, using the term "religious right" instead. In a separate interview, he said the phrase encompassed conservative activists of all faiths, including within the Jewish community.

He used particularly strong language to condemn conservative attitudes toward homosexuals. He said he understood that traditionalists have concluded gay marriage violates Scripture, but he said that did not justify denying legal protections to same-sex partners and their children.

"We cannot forget that when Hitler came to power in 1933, one of the first things that he did was ban gay organizations," Yoffie said. "Yes, we can disagree about gay marriage. But there is no excuse for hateful rhetoric that fuels the hellfires of anti-gay bigotry."

*****end of clip*****

I am still waiting to hear the American Christian leaders condemn hate.

I had completely missed the connection to the anti-gay bigotry of the Nazis. So much the same as today some of the higher ranking military and party were gay.

When are people going to realize that all hate is an outgrowth of self-hatred? Hate never looks good on anybody. Hate is a mask worn to cover fear.

"If you hate a person, you hate something in him that is part of yourself. What isn't part of ourselves doesn't disturb us." ~ Hermann Hesse (1877 - 1962)

capt

Murtha's video on Russert/MTP is at Crooks and Liars too.

Door thwarts quick exit for Bush

President George W Bush tried to make a quick exit from a news conference in Beijing on Sunday - only to find himself thwarted by locked doors.

After answering just six questions from a group of US reporters, the president strode away heading towards the door.

President Bush tugged at both handles on the double doors before admitting: "I was trying to escape. Obviously, it didn't work."

*****end of clip*****

Exit strategy aside, it sound like he was really trying to escape. The Sunday school cowboy is really just a scared little monkey-boy.

(video at link)

Click HERE for a still. Scroll up for a series.

capt

LATEST HEADLINES

Cheney's pants catch fire at GOP dinner

Mars, God of War, calls for immediate troop withdrawal

Mathematician who solved Fermat's Last Theorem 'baffled' by Medicare plan

More trouble for Bush: chickenhawks contract bird flu

Jordan: suicide bomber faces death penalty

Hollywood: top billing in 'Dawn of Dead' sequel offered to Chalabi

Alito distances himself from himself

Bush proposes constitutional lowering of the bar

Jesus returns, renditioned to Uzbekistan, tortured

FEMA 'getting out' of emergency management business

Pro-lifers mistakenly bomb anti-abortion clinic

Castro 'fit as a Fidel'

Dems risk losing endangered species status

Slave laborers accused of padding hours

Bush: we were all wrong on global warming

Nudists drop Casual Friday

http://www.ironictimes.com/

Can't we just return to the days when we simply adorned dictators with our generous monetary donations to appease our myopic image of world peace? Imagine, as the great bong leader sang, if you can.

That evilMcChimphilternazieatingbabiesforbreakfastcowboy done gone an messed up our utophia.

chickenhawk get the bird flu, WAY-FUNNY!!

Sure it would help Bush's image if Zarquari is captured or killed.

yelnats @ #35 re: Gen. Odom. Mr. Odom's points are remarkably in line with the thoughtful case made in Nir Rosen's article in the current Atlantic Monthly that the best the US can do in Iraq right now for everyone is leave quickly. I am not 100% convinced, but this has changed my own thinking quite a bit. Previously, I thought we might gradually withdraw over a few months, do a "mea culpa" to the rest of the world, and propose a UN resolution to bring in some US peacekeeping troops, with a significant component from countries of the Middle East neighboring hesresoutiosoe a kplaosulyfeelings quite a bit. The Rosen article also states that the Kurds will never really be a part of the "new" Iraq. That they are essentially already runnning their notherrn territories as an autonomous state.

A couple links for those who'd like a painful reminder of the culture of staggering arrogance and impunity of various hangers-on to the neo-con administration: Judy Miller again, and an colleague of mega-political criminal Jack Abramoff:

http://www.onthemedia.org/transcripts/transcripts_111105_judith.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/17/AR2005111701682.html

But Dave Corn, I am sensing some bias here. You indicate that a couple of well placed bullets wont solve the war. Of course, but you need to look at the accumlative effect. War is being won, slow but sure, too slow for most getting frustrated, ala Murdhal, but it seems that progress is being made, one bullet at a time.

Hello all,

Will death of Z help anything? Probaly not.

Years ago when I was in Pakistan and southern Afganistan as well as Kenya, Back when things were 'okay' for the average US citizen there, cept for northern Afghanistn at war with the USSR, it was volitile, dangerous and misery was plentiful. That was when things were 'good'.

The new dimension of misery that the USA has inflicted on people in Iraq is incomprehensible. The people on the ground in Iraq probably are less concerned with 'Z' as they are on the minute to minute suffering that they face, well, minute to minute. I'm guessing their misery has 'USA' imprinted on their thoughts - sans 'Z'.

To make matters worse, even if the pentagon starts quietly pulling troops out, the probability increases for both sides to rachet up attacks with more visciousness and use of nasty weapons, as well as the potential for land mines.

This war is a horrible crime with or without 'Z'. There is no way to paint it rosey. It will be a black mark for generations. That mark must be worn by the bushco's. Problem is a black eye for the USA and bushco is a black eye for us all.

I found a link with the Nir Rosen article, where you don't need to be a registered subscriber:

http://anthony.gnn.tv/

yep Derrick, roughly 100,000 Iraqis liberated already! One bullet at a time. I know, you have to scramble some eggs to make the pipeline omelette, right?

yelnats,
could it actually be as cut and dried as this?
The Religious Nature Of Politics

"War is being won, slow but sure..." Yeah, by the enemy. Again, it doesn't matter if we kill their big shots or not. A broad-based, popular resistance movement does not crumble if its leader(s) is/are killed. We would have lost the Vietnam War even if we had killed Ho, and killing Zarqawi, or even bin Laden, will not make the Iraqi rebels roll over and play dead. For every rebel we kill, we make several other non-rebels angry enough to become rebels. How does Mr. Reid think we can win when every tactic available creates more enemies than it destroys? If the position was somehow reversed, if some powerful enemy had invaded OUR country, does he think we'd surrender? Did WE yield to superior force in 1775-1781?

Also, how long do our hawks think we can AFFORD this hare-brained attempt by a cabal of pseudo-intellectual chickenhawks to subjugate the Middle East? WE ARE A DEBTOR NATION. OUR ATTEMPTS TO CREATE A STEALTH EMPIRE (not even so stealthy lately) ARE BANKRUPTING US. The only winners of this war will be Iran (in the Middle East) and China (which will surpass us as the world's leading economic power). If we continue on the current path, we will end up like the Soviet Union; an economic basket case that can no longer maintain a large military force. Our military officers are already warning us that this war is crippling the long-term effectiveness of our armed forces. We could end up with a Potemkin-village military, impressive-looking but hollow.

Bring our troops home, and then impeach the murdering bastards who sent them to die for a pack of lies.

From the swamps of Arkansas, Ivory Bill Woodpecker

Saladin,

Saddam killed 1000000 muslim. How many more before you would doing any thing about it?

At least the current deaths are part of a noble struggle to free the islamic world of centuries of social stagnation.

Bush is a hero.

Any man who liberates 50,000,000 from tyranny and oppression should be a hero in everyone's book. Now come on you guys, you cant have it both ways, good that saddam is gone, but the war was a mistake. Can you?

You know things are NOT going swimmingly when Rummy distances himself from this "noble" war:

The following exchange is an excerpt from yesterday's "This Week."

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS: If you had known that no weapons of mass destruction would be found, would you have advocated invasion?

SEC. RUMSFELD: I didn?t advocate invasion.

STEPHANOPOULOS: You didn?t?

RUMSFELD: No, I wasn?t asked.

DMR, down boy! You're about to OD on the Kool-Aid!

Derrick, saddam killed how many? And just where do you get this info? bush said so? TV said so? Even if it were true, why is it murder when he does it, but noble when we do it? If that isn't mind conditioning I don't know what is.

Well, we sure live in interesting times, don't we?

And I found watching things unfold since Murtha's bombshell on Thursday to be a better spending of time than worrying what my comments on the matter might be.

The Jean Schmidt affair was particularly amusing, as was the whole US Congress Show on Friday.

"When the going gets strange the weird turn pro." - HST, shame he checked out, he would have enjoyed the spectacle. But that is a good seque to a link to the current issue of Rolling Stone, and JAmes Bamford's new article, "The Man Who Sold the War"
Meet John Rendon, Bush's general in the propaganda war
By JAMES BAMFORD

*******************

I must say that I am reminded of the fall of the Nixon regime, and in that regards some might be interested in "Yankee and the Cowboy War" by Carl Oglesby, for a look at competing interests within the power structure.

Derrick, they were going to destroy Iraq whether saddam was still in power or not, they admitted it. Liberating the people had zero to do with it. They also admitted that Iraq was the chosen target because it is swimming on a sea of oil. You must have some of the rosiest colored glasses around.

Removing Zarqawi won't mean anything in terms of the war in Iraq. I blogged on the "foreign fighters" deal here with information confirming that they are insignificant in real terms:

http://greyhairsblog.blogspot.com/
2005/11/foreign-fightersor-lack-thereof
.html

I think you are correct, that the administration loses a figurehead to pick on. But don't fret. They'll find another playing card.

Globalist Plan to Disarm America: PL87-297 Arms Control and Disarmament Act

... go to your local library, no matter where you live in the United States. Tell the librarian to show you where the 'United States Code books' are shelved. There are 25 books in the set. They are reddish-brown in color. They are printed by the Government Printing Office in Washington, DC. These hard-covered books are printed every 8-10 years. They are updated with annual soft-back supplements each year until a new hard cover issue comes out. At the present time, the 1988 hardbacks are on library shelves.

OPEN VOLUME 9. The page numbers are in the center near the middle binding. The section numbers are along the edges.

TURN TO PAGE 651. Here you will find Public Law 87-297 which calls for the United States to eliminate its armed forces. This law was signed for the United States in 1961. John F. Kennedy signed it and every president since has worked to enact its provisions. The government knows you will not approve which is why they want to take away your firearms. (This is Title 22 USC section 2551)

TURN TO PAGE 652. Here you will find the definition of what the government means by "disarmament." The disarmament calls for the elimination of our armed forces. It also calls for the elimination of weapons of all kinds.

(This is Title 22 USC 2552 (a).

TURN TO PAGE 654. Here you will find it stated as item (a) "control, reduction and elimination of armed forces..." and as Item (d)" ...Elimination of armed forces...." What you need to know is that your armed forces are being eliminated and relinquished from national control which, in turn, wipes out our sovereignty as a nation. In two stages, we will have no more army, no more navy, no more air force. In the third stage, we shall have a "zero" military. Before Stage I closes, all citizen owned guns are to be banned.

(This is Title 22 USC Section 2571 (a).
---------------
Is this why we are losing military bases?

Ivory Bill,

Here is where you are going wrong. The islamic culture has a 1500 year history of killing the infidels, and that aint going to change over night. You have 9/11, far removed from the middle east. This of the 9/11 strike as a rounge bubble-bee strike from a distance hive. Now, you make the decision to sit back and get recurringly stung for a far afield hive, or you strike at the heart and kill it. The decision not to take recurring 9/11s to strike necessary means hiting the hive, and when you do that, sure the bees will come out in mass, as you destroy the hive. So, the arguement that you are creating more terrorist is hog-wash, but merely a result of a proximate war against the hive. Get it? did not thank so.

I don't know what the administration is thinking or what the propaganda wing of the white house is conjuring up, but I do know my part of the heartland. They don't keep track of people like Zawqawi. If you tell someone that Zawqawi was killed they will respond with a comment like "Who's he exactly?" or "Good now we can leave Iraq."
They don't keep a score card of terrorists much to the dismay of the Bush administration. The old deck of cards gimmick was a nice marketing tool but it wasn't a way to run a war. The White House has to remember it isn't toothpaste they are selling.

Yelnats,
Great comments.

#62
I know I don't get it.

Now, remind me of what Iraq had to do with 9/11? You've really got it bad, dontcha Derrick? I almost feel sorry for you, but the truth is out there, so there's no excuse for such blatant ignorance. Blind patriotism is the most dangerous religion of all, makes Islamo-Facists seem tame by comparison!

Salamen,

Ask the gased Kurds, or the swamp Arabs, or the Iranians, or the Kuwaties.

You cant be serious?

Salamen,

Ask the gased Kurds, or the swamp Arabs, or the Iranians, or the Kuwaties.

You cant be serious?

I don't get #62 either, Derrick. You sound like someone who believes in Manifest Destiny of the West. Maybe you should fast forward a hundred years or so from when that doctrine was in vogue.

Dang, sorry about that triple post, computer problem.

Jeane,

The islamo-facists are concentrated in the middle east. If the infidels go there, you should expect more of them to become active. (Not all islamo facist have MA plane tickets, now do they?) It is not that we created more terrorists by going into Iraq, the increase in attacks is a consequence of our military proximity, not their existance.

Riff,

I do believe that the world is on the right track headed towards more broadband connectivity, and that there is a struggle between the CORE (Russia-US-China-EU-India) and the GAP (Middle east Africa) of unconnected rouge countries. As rouge countries (Saddam's Iraq) are converted and integrated into the CORE (a new world order), the world is headed for peace for decades in not centuries to come. Yes there is vision here, and the civilization of militant islam is part of that struggle.

Let's ask the 100,000 we've slaughtered. You can't be serious. What is it about attacking Iraq with or without saddam in charge that you don't understand? And, who was it that gassed the Kurds? You might want to look a little more closely at that.

Most dangerous city? Ranking says Camden

CAMDEN, N.J. - For the second year in a row, this destitute city has been named the nation's most dangerous, according to a company's annual ranking based on crime statistics....

...Police are now using computers to try to track crime trends, and more officers are patrolling the city's neighborhoods.

Authorities say that has helped drive down the most serious crimes by 18 percent in the first 10 months of 2005 compared with the same period a year earlier.

Some residents say their neighborhoods feel a bit safer.

"I haven’¥ heard that many gunshots," said Gracy Muniz, 22, a mother of three who lives in North Camden.

Critics note that Morgan Quitno’≥ ranking is based on data from last year, when the city of 80,000 averaged a murder a week. Murders from January through October were down by 45 percent compared with the same period in 2004.

Top 10 lists
Scott Morgan, president of Morgan Quitno, said Friday that while the numbers may not be perfect, they are one of the only ways to compare crime in different cities. Below are the top 10 lists compiled by the publisher.

Most Dangerous Cities:
1. Camden, N.J.
2. Detroit
3. St. Louis
4. Flint, Mich.
5. Richmond, Va.
6. Baltimore
7. Atlanta
8. New Orleans
9. Gary, Ind.
10. Birmingham, Ala.

Safest Cities:
1. Newton, Mass.
2. Clarkstown, N.Y.
3. Amherst, N.Y.
4. Mission Viejo, Calif.
5. Brick Township, N.J.
6. Troy, Mich.
7. Thousand Oaks, Calif.
8. Round Rock, Texas
9. Lake Forest, Calif.
10. Cary, N.C.
---------------------------
We went into a war with Iraq for a reason I have yet to understand. And the real war on terror is here. The war on poverty is far greater a menace to this nation than Bush's played-up enemies.

The real joke is the choice of who the enemy is. There are far greater enemies than Saddam was. Osama was ignored. North Korea was ignored. The Darfar region was ignored.
And now somehow Hugo Chavez is the enemy. Why? And why are we finding new enemies? Why is the enemy in our nation not poverty or lack of health care?

Derrick, it must be wonderful to live with such illusions. To be able to completely ignore all evidence contrary to your personal vision of what is happening. I will leave you with the unfounded notion that Islam is the bad guy and we are the knights in shining armor. The day will come soon enough when that happy fantasy is shattered for everyone who induldges in it.

Dear Mr. Reid,

Spell check would do very little to bolster your obvious ignorance.

It is not that we created more terrorists by going into Iraq, the increase in attacks is a consequence of our military proximity, not their existance.

You exhibit no knowledge about tribal society, the influence of revenge for the slights of honor involved in search and destroy missions, for instance.

My only post to your ignorance.

Is there an Exorcist in the house? Will Holy Water sizzle if sprinkled on Chimpy? Could humanity survive nu-cu-lar winter? Is Zukawaki the ONLY terrorist leader?

Salamin, OK HERE IS THE REMINDER.

The war on terror took it urgency after 9/11. (Agreed?) The war on terror will never be won until democracy are stood up giving all the right to express greivences to governments that will sit on the crazies. (Agreed?) Saddams' Iraq stood in the way in the war on terror. (Agreed?) Given Saddam's bad acts of killing 1000000 muslim, one pistol shot at an F15 over a no-fly zone should have been sufficient justification to take him out. (Agreed?)
The War on Terror is on, and the battle for Iraq is nearly won. (Agreed?)
Sure, Bush used WMD for the mono v mono appeal, but there were 14 years of justification for regime change as part of the war on terror.

Al-Zarqawi believed dead, says Iraqi foreign minister

Al-Qaida in Iraq chief Abu Musab al-Zarqawi is believed to have been killed in a military operation in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul, Iraq's foreign minister said today.

Hoshyar Zebari told the official Petra news agency during a visit to Moscow that Iraqi authorities were testing DNA samples from several corpses of insurgents killed in a weekend gunfight in Mosul.

"American and Iraqi forces are investigating the possibility that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's corpse is among the bodies of some terrorists who died in the special military operation in Mosul," she said.

State television carried the urgent news in a scrolling newsbar at the bottom of the screen during regular programming, suggesting that Jordanian officials likely believe the report.

No other details were immediately available.

Earlier today, the White House had said it was "Highly unlikely "that al-Zarqawi was among the dead."
---------------------------
Ok, so...can we go home now?

I lied -

The war on terror took it urgency after 9/11. (Agreed?) Mr. Reid

NOT AGREED - 9/11 was a criminal act which was never fully investigated and the crime scene was criminally distroyed before the investigation could take place. I was, is and should have remained a criminal, not military, investigation.

First of all Derrick, it's hard to take you seriously when you can't even spell my name correctly! I disagree with virtually all of your points, because they are bullshit lies and propaganda. I concur with Robert, your ignorance is staggering, so I won't detail my reasons, but rather leave you to your cozy little version of the world. TA TA!

Robert,

of course I understand that they do not want the infidels on their lands, but accept as simply the lesser of two evils, as compared to Saddam's brutality, and hence, when the gov can stand on its own, we should get out of the there. I agree with that.

Saladin, that is what makes a horse race. I want to hear your point of view, as I will never be so coc-sure I wont listen. But, you know, I too would rather there not be the war, but I dont want another 9/11, and the islamo-facist world need an attitude adjustment, and that includes moving the strong-men towards democracy.

#77
Why should she agree to that? If the war on terror had been more urgent before 9/11 we wouldn't have had 9/11.
The Bush administration is not interested in spreading democracy, just stealing the wealth and resouces of the nations they are plundering. My proof? Why do the neocons keep installing puppet governments?
Saddam's Iraq did not stand in the way of the war on terror. What crap.
Why is the Darfar region of no concern to this administration when hundreds of thousands are being murdered there?
The war being won? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA. Stop. Too funny.

#77

Here we go again with the rnc canned talking points on Iraq and Sadaam Hussien. Its as if
Bush backers keep repeating them enough they will braiwash themselves into believing them.

The Bush backers simply refuse to deal with the truth that Hussien was no "imminent threat" to the U.S., has no hughe caches of WMD'S and had no involvement with the events of 9-11-01, and finally that their was no collusion between Hussien and Bin Laden.

Let the Bush backers keep repeating their rnc approved talking points. The american people are not buying it anymore.

Salamen,

Rather than merely slam my point of view, please tell your plan (specific course of action) to avoid future terrorist attacks. "Death to America", when we supported strong-man rule (shaw of Iran) rather than encourage democratic reform, now forcefully done in Iraq?

Robert, I know some people here will wonder why I am conversing with a bushbot, breaking my own self-imposed rule. The answer is that he has remained, in spite of his serious lack of original talking points, polite. I don't mind the disagreements I have with these war supporters, what I do mind is mean and rude name calling used in place of rational discourse. But I do get bored when all they can come up with are opinions unbacked by facts. The facts of 9/11 are conveniently swept under the carpet because they don't gel with the already preconceived and prejudiced ideas of Muslims as psychos and the US Govt. as heroes. There really is no reasoning with people who refuse to examine both sides, so I won't.

Left Angle,

If you wait until there is an immenant threat, you waited too long. Get it? No need to buy the guard dog, when the burlar already has a gun to your head. But preemptive strikes in advance of an immenant threat must be justified. Here, Saddam's bad acts were sufficient justification, and WMD possession or failure to show no WMD possession, was just one point of those justifications.

Saliman, "There really is no reasoning with people who refuse to examine both sides, so I won't."

Your strategy:

Provide no alternative course of conduct or plan.
Do not reason with opposing views.
JUST SLAM the administration, is your tactic.

This is exactly what the objection is to the entire dem leadership, and Salamin it seems that you have adpoted this approach, wholesale.

Fire Woodward

By Evan Derkacz

Printed on November 21, 2005

After reading Washington Post's "non-budsman's" defense of Woodward's decision to conceal from his editor's his knowledge of the outing of Valerie Plame, John Aravosis writes: "just in case any real journalists are still left at the Washington Post: Bob Woodard's excuse is a lie that a child could unravel."

*****end of clip*****

That is what I was thinking.

capt

if y'all look back to #54 you'll understand that mr. Reid is just going on n on in order to get your collective goats - or pet goats I should say -

Saladin,

I think misspelling your name, repeatedly, deliberately or by lack of care, is enough rudeness on it's face to cease coversation.

For myself, I will continue to slam any administration, that lies to come to power, lies to commit forces to combat, lies to stay in power, etc.

My plan?
#1 and by far the most important. Remove the traitorous neocons that have staged the coup d'etat that is bringing our country to ruin.
#2 Arrest, try and imprison every member of the criminal cabal known as the PNAC, they are the ones responsible for 9/11.
#3 Remove and outlaw lobbyists.
#4 Abolish the dishonest and unfair two party political system. We need to get back to Govt. of the people, by the people and for the people.
#5 Dismantle all foreign military bases and mind our own damn business! We have enough problems in our own country, we don't need our fingers in every pie.
# 6 Start serious investment into alternative energy sources. This is our Achilles heel, putting it off won't make it go away.

Here is a PNAC primer. If you are truly interested in why we are doing what we are doing in the middle east, this goes a long way in explaining it. Believe me, democracy isn't even in the formula.

PROJECT FOR THE NEW AMERICAN CENTURY (PNAC)

Salamin: ?9/11 was a criminal act which was never fully investigated and the crime scene was criminally distroyed before the investigation could take place. I was, is and should have remained a criminal, not military, investigation."

That is a reasonable position to take. OK, have it your way. I will simply call the 82 airborne, our foreign swat teams. But really, I do not consider the 9/11 attacks to be a mere case of murder, as it is part of a global strategy for militant Islam. I suppose Japan's attack on pearl harbor was just a simple graffie case? Now here is the JOKE of course, you say they are criminals, yet want GENVA TREATY PROTECTION, how does POW treaty protection square with you saying they are mere criminals. You cant have it both ways, can you?

Biden: Chance of Alito Filibuster Higher

WASHINGTON (AP) - The views that Samuel Alito expressed on reapportionment in a 20-year-old document could jeopardize his Supreme Court nomination and provoke a filibuster, a leading Democratic senator said Sunday.

"I think he's got a lot of explaining to do, and depending on how he does, I think will determine whether or not he has a problem or not," said Sen. Joseph Biden, a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, which plans confirmation hearings in early January.

In 1985, Alito was applying to become deputy assistant attorney general in the Reagan administration. In the document, he boasted that while working as an assistant to the solicitor general, he helped "to advance legal positions in which I personally believe very strongly."

Drawing the most attention from Alito's critics today is his comment on abortion.

"I am particularly proud of my contributions in recent cases in which the government argued that racial and ethnic quotas should not be allowed and that the Constitution does not protect a right to an abortion," wrote Alito, now a federal appeals court judge.

*****end of clip*****

I have said that nothing would surprise me but if the Democrats filibuster I will be surprised.

They will threaten and pretend until the last minute, then Alito will be confirmed. All that is needed to avoid the filibuster is a few Democrats, we can all guess those names.

capt

James, he hasn't gotten my goat, but I do know that bush supporters need their belief just like all religious fanatics need their belief. I have reached the end. Robert is probably right, mispelling my name is disrespectful on the face, plus he won't answer my questions or even acknowledge his inconsistancies. I don't have anything else to say to him.

James, he hasn't gotten my goat, but I do know that bush supporters need their belief just like all religious fanatics need their belief. I have reached the end. Robert is probably right, mispelling my name is disrespectful on the face, plus he won't answer my questions or even acknowledge his inconsistancies. I don't have anything else to say to him.

Requardless of Zeqarwi dead or not, I consider Iraq standing up and the containment of Militant islam, a done deal, if you can project 5 years out. The real issues today should be shutting down the southern border and developing alternative fuels.

I remember a troll post yesterday that made a serious point that I had heard as a joke on SNL. Too funny.

Dont you all just love Bush packing the court with conservative! Dang, christmas may survive after all.

L.A. Times Cutting 85 Newsroom Jobs

From a Times Staff Writer

1:20 PM PST, November 16, 2005

The Los Angeles Times today announced it will reduce its workforce, including eliminating about 8% of its editorial staff.

In e-mails sent to employees, Publisher Jeff Johnson and Editor Dean Baquet announced the reductions, which had been rumored for days.

"Beginning this week and over the next three weeks, departments will be communicating specific initiatives including job reductions to their employees," Johnson said. "These are not easy decisions and we are not taking them lightly. However, given the current business climate, we feel these reductions are absolutely essential to succeed in 2006 and beyond."

The paper gave no number for the jobs to be eliminated paper wide. However, Baquet said about 85 newsroom jobs will be lost. There are about 1,032 editorial positions.

"A few of the cuts have already been made through attrition. Some will come through a voluntary separation program. But others, unfortunately, will come through layoffs," Baquet said.

*****end of clip*****

Sad for those losing their jobs.

The problem I see is more with ownership and sponsorship. The influence of necessary profit does not mean the "suits" should be running the news-room. Sure all papers can do a better job and I am sure they can be profitable but when news is chasing ratings the message is conditioned, the story selection perverted, no way around it.

capt

97
And Dreeeeam the impoooossible dream.

This is my quest
To follow that star
No matter how hopeless
No matter how far

To fight for the right
Without question or pause
To be willing to march into Hell
For a heavenly cause

Dream the Impossible Dream
---------------------
Go for it Derrick. Join the army.

As I have noted on many previous occasions, I might be able to take the trolls more seriously if they could spell. I have to get some sleep before going to work tonight, so sayonara, y'all.---IBW

mr. Reid,
I liked your bumble bee hive analogy - - it reminded me of this: Flight Of The Bumble Planes.
"what does that have to do with anything", you might ask? well, it only serves to point out that 911 should have been investigated just a little bit more thoroughly before being blamed on those evil islamo-fascists that you seem so worried about.

#99
Derrick,
Christmas is capitalized.

From: Think Progress

The Rendon Group: Proof The Administration Manipulated Intelligence
From “ìaddam Hussein's Development of Weapons of Mass Destruction [White House website]:

In 2001, an Iraqi defector, Adnan Ihsan Saeed al-Haideri, said he had visited twenty secret facilities for chemical, biological and nuclear weapons. Mr. Saeed said Iraq used companies to purchase equipment with the blessing of the United Nations - and then secretly used the equipment for their weapons programs.

None of al-Haideri's claims were true. Today's Rolling Stone reveals that the administration's use of al-Haideri's lies to justify the Iraq war were the product of a clandestine operation that had been set up and funded by the CIA and the Pentagon for the express purpose of selling a war.
At the center of this operation was John Rendon and The Rendon Group, a controversial, secretive firm that has been criticized as ineffective and too expensive, paid more than $56 million by the government since the 9/11 attacks. (Taxpayers are paying Rendon himself $311.26/hour.)

The Rendon Group personally set up the Iraqi National Congress and helped install Ahmad Chalabi as leader, whose main goal, pressure the United States to attack Iraq and overthrow Saddam Hussein. Rendon helped facilitate. Pentagon documents show that Rendon has the highest level of government clearance (above Top Secret), which helped it with its INC work worldwide media blitz designed to turn Hussein into the greatest threat to world peace.
While the White House continues to insist it did not manipulate intelligence before the Iraq war, it sure seems that it hired John Rendon and his group to do just that.
------------
Like everything else, it's all in the marketing! saddam had to be stopped, not because he was a tyrant, God knows there are lot's of those out there, but because he was building an Iraqi infrastructure that would compete with Israel and other middle east interests, and we couldn't have that. Besides, there was also that pipeline issue.

Todays Democracy Now! includes interview with James Bamford.

OK, you all want cumbiya, ok, lets dont talk about whether going into Iraq was necessary, as we disagree.

The deficits are too high (that is shameful by the Republicans!!), the southern border is not being control (tantamount to treason by the Bush Administration). So, I am not locked into the GOP, and can find plenty of faults. Any agreements here????

'Peace Mom' Sheehan to Release Book

By ANGELA K. BROWN
The Associated Press
Saturday, November 19, 2005; 6:28 PM

FORT WORTH, Texas -- After spending scorching August days with hundreds of war protesters at her makeshift camp near President Bush's Crawford ranch, Cindy Sheehan slipped away each night to her tent or RV for a few quiet moments on her laptop.

The words came easily as she opined about the war, U.S. leaders, her critics, her supporters. And the tears started to flow no matter how many times she wrote about her 24-year-old soldier son Casey, who died in Iraq last year.

"I miss him more every day. It seems the void in my life grows as time goes on, and I realize I am never going to see him again or hear his voice," Sheehan wrote. "I knew he was going to be a great man. I just had no idea how great he was going to be or how much it was going to hurt me."

Now those journal entries are in her book, "Not One More Mother's Child," to be released Wednesday. The paperback also contains some of her speeches to peace groups earlier this year, letters to politicians and writings since leaving Crawford.

*****end of clip*****

I will buy a copy. I bet it sells like hotcakes!

HA!

capt

I guess David Cornhole, like all his regular groupies(Saladin, Hajji, Jeanne, Capt Kirk, James Wa Wa, Alan) don't really care about the troops being blown-up by Zarquawis henchmen- if it's going to help Bush. You all would rather see our troops die, than give Bush any credit for winning the war on terror. What is wrong with you people? Are you so blind by hatred for this war that your willing to risk our childrens lives to make Bush look bad? Your sicko wack jobs-Idon't care if I am hurting your feelings Saladin with mean words or not- the truth hurts.

Derrick, what is your purpose here? Why do you care about what we may agree or disaree with regarding your opinions? Most bush supporters consider us America hating communists. What's up with you?

Fools and idiots cannot hurt my feelings. You are the perfect example of people I ignore.

Manifest Destiny is much too modern an idea for Derrick. I think he's waiting for the new Crusades.

Ivory Bill: Do you participate over at D-Kos under a similar name?

The truth hurts??

Baf and DMR feel no pain.

Jeanne, thanks for the grammar tip, (I was an enganeer for too many years).

They would not take me, and even if they did, with my tech and law knowledge, I would probably negotiate weapon contract and not front line duty.

But, my 20 yo boy, is in Qutar now, he is part of the medical corps, maintaining med equipement. I hope the fighting in Iraq stops soon.

Time to talk: US engages the Taliban

By Syed Saleem Shahzad

KARACHI - Despite deposing the Taliban regime in Afghanistan in quick time at the end of 2001, the United States has not been able to rid the country of the Islamic hardliners, who four years later lead an Afghan resistance that shows no signs of abating, let alone buckling.

US efforts to combat the Taliban include outright military action (there are 18,000 US troops in the country, in addition to 12,000 members of North Atlantic Treaty Organization in the International Security Assistance Force), and attempts to embrace "good" Taliban.

And now, most significantly, come efforts to deal directly with the real "problem" - Taliban leader Mullah Omar, the only person with the ability to influence decisions of import related to the Taliban and their future activities in the country.

Reports emerged in the Pakistani media at the weekend that the US had contacted the Taliban leadership with the aim of establishing a truce in Afghanistan. The reported linkman is a Pakistani, Javed Ibrahim Paracha, but he has denied the story, saying he had never met any US officials, only US businessmen.

There is more to this story, though, according to information acquired by Asia Times Online.

In fact, the latest peace initiative was started a few months ago when the US realized, finally, that it simply was not making significant progress in stabilizing Afghanistan, despite the relatively successful conclusion of presidential and parliamentary elections.

*****end of clip*****

I would expect the jingoistic jumping beans to storm the WH or at least a few screamers in echo chambers go apoplectic.

I am still wait to hear our current military leaders called "Michael Moore" leftist and defeatists for drafting plans to re-deploy our troops out of Iraq.

No integrity, if you do not stand for anything you do not stand for anything.

capt

General Smedley Butler, a man who was the most decorated soldier in an American uniform at the time, who was the commander of the Marine Corps school, has this to say about war in general;

Excerpt from a speech delivered in 1933, by Major General Smedley Butler, USMC.

War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.

I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.

I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.

There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its finger men to point out enemies, its muscle men to destroy enemies, its brain men to plan war preparations, and a big Boss, Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.

It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.
-----------
I've never thanked Anderson Petition for his contributions, so I want to now.

Robert Schwartz

I feel pain, I feel the pain of our brave men and women in uniform, who proudly serve their country and have to read all the anti-military, anti-American hate that comes from the left. If you really hate America so bad then why don't you do us a favor and move your cowardly ass to Canada- who knows you might even make some friends there.

"Manifest Destiny is much too modern an idea for Derrick. I think he's waiting for the new Crusades."

Of course, that presupposes that we are in Iraq to create the 51st state, or take their oil, both of which I reject. The Manifest Destiny expansion to the west coast does not exactly applies, now does it? This is a case where a far lefty is trying to make a 19th prospensity for expansion to be the same as the war on terror. The war on terror is primarly a forward defensive war, whereas the expansion west was filling in a vacuum, save only the native americans. I find that a difficult leap to make, BUT SOUNDS good to all the bush haters.

No Baf, Robert should stay. We need all views, both left and right, to make good decisions. I want all the lefties slamming the right administration, because, occasionally, and rarely, they do come up with good ideas, and concerns, and function as a watch-dog. I dont want gunslinger Bush going off willy-nilly, but only under controlled feedback. The left must speak up at all times, so their ideas can be fed into the political discussion, even though most of it should be rejected.

"Mom? this is Mark Bingham."

#58 Robert Schwartz -- regarding that Bamford article you linked: Bamford's ending paragraphs are only the tip of the iceberg -- but they are indicative of a scary mindset:

"He said the embedded idea was great," says an Air Force colonel who attended the talk. "It worked as they had found in the test. It was the war version of reality television, and for the most part they did not lose control of the story." But Rendon also cautioned that individual news organizations were often able to "take control of the story," shaping the news before the Pentagon asserted its spin on the day's events.

"We lost control of the context," Rendon warned. "That has to be fixed for the next war."

Losing the Fear Factor

How The Bush Administration Got Spooked

By Tom Engelhardt

How stunningly in recent weeks the landscape has altered -- almost like your basic hurricane sweeping through some unprotected and unprepared city. Now, to their amazement, Bush administration officials find themselves thrust through the equivalent of a Star-Trekkian wormhole into an anti-universe where everything that once worked for them seems to work against them. As always, in the face of domestic challenge, they have responded by attacking -- a tactic that was effective for years. The President, Vice President, National Security Adviser, and others have ramped up their assaults, functionally accusing Democratic critics of little short of treason -- of essentially undermining American forces in the field, if not offering aid and comfort to the enemy. On his recent trip to Asia, the President put it almost as bluntly as his Vice President did at home: "As our troops fight a ruthless enemy determined to destroy our way of life, they deserve to know that their elected leaders who voted to send them into war continue to stand behind them." The Democrats were, he said over and over, "irresponsible" in their attacks. Dick Cheney called them spineless "opportunists" peddling dishonestly for political advantage.

*****end of clip*****

The piece is published all over but a "do not miss" if you have not seen it yet.

capt

jeanne #104

"Christmas is capitolized"

It's called a free market economy-and yes it's friggin great!!! I could see that your more into Halloween-you trolls are always pretending to be someone your not(and scary looking).

Yosfiya: The 21st Century Nazis Are Here

-"I want the government to hear my question and answer me: why were we treated like this? The police brigades broke even the electricity converters, we do not have power for 40 days, of course water pumps do not operate and the plants are all dead. Our animals were killed, our women humiliated. They ask the women where did you hide the men, they grabbed the children from their hair and throw them to the ground. Riyadh's mother was crying and begging them to leave her son; they hit her with the gun's end, they smashed his head with a brick in front of her eyes, now she is dying. When his body was found it was skinned, Abbass was so old that he could not even walk, how he would be a terrorist!! He was beaten to death on the spot and his body was thrown in the drainage. When they searched the houses they did not find any indication that any of them had any thing to do with terrorism or weapons, so why? The government is working on turning every body against it. It is encouraging ordinary people to resist by treating them so savagely. They have no mercy. We have nothing left now...
----------------
This is the truth. This is what saddam has been replaced with. These are the real people of Iraq, being crushed and abandoned. This is a disgrace to our country. Read this story, look at the photographs. Who could possibly support this? But I forget, we are getting the best marketing money can buy.

"War is just a racket."

I guess the 3000 dead in NY lost the raffle.

A black mark for media

By Joan Vennochi, Globe Columnist
November 20, 2005

THE CASE against Scooter Libby is up in the air, but the case against the press is solid.

Special counsel Patrick Fitzgerald indicted I. Lewis ''Scooter" Libby Jr. on criminal charges, including obstruction of justice, making a false statement and perjury in the CIA leak investigation. The press indicted itself on grounds of coziness, self-interest, and dishonesty.

So far, Plamegate -- the investigation into the leaking of the name of CIA agent Valerie Plame Wilson -- is revealing uncomfortable truths about the media, including icons like The Washington Post's Bob Woodward.

In the course of writing a book, Woodward learned two years ago from a government official that Wilson was a CIA agent. He did not tell his newspaper, an omission for which he this week apologized. He also belittled Fitzgerald's investigation, despite an obvious conflict of interest. The legendary journalist who inspired reporters to challenge the power structure is now an official creature of that power structure.

Judith Miller of The New York Times lost her job over a similar scenario. She didn't tell her bosses what she knew about Wilson and when she knew it. Miller testified she could not remember the source. But Libby figured in the storyline.

The difference in career outcomes for Woodward and Miller is a lot like high school, where the popular always prevail over the unpopular and less cool. Woodward, forever basking in the afterglow of Watergate, is backed by his bosses. Miller, whose reporting on WMDs in Iraq, turned out to be wrong, was not backed by bosses who gladly published her stories.

*****end of clip*****

We have high-school popularity in the "newsrooms" and a president that sends notes to ask to go potty?

What a country.

capt

I am sure that abuses occur during war when lives are on the line, and surely, there can be many outrages found during the course of any war. But try not to loose sight of the goals, and look at the big picture if you can, and try to project the long term results. I dream of a day that the middle east would prosper with new found tolerance, democracy, civlity, and connectivity to the functioning core, for their increase prosperity, trade and peace.

"It is good that war is hell, less, we would grow to found of it."
RE Lee

Murtha says Americans back Iraq pullout

"You can't spin this. You've got to have a real solution," Murtha said. "This is not a war of words, this is a war."

Aware that his comments last week would draw fire from conservatives, Murtha said he specifically asked more liberal members of his party not to step forward to support him.

"I didn't want (the public) to think this was a Democrat position plotted from the left wing," Murtha said.

Murtha expressed confidence that terrorist bombings in Iraq would cease once U.S. troops were gone and Iraqis became solely responsible for their destiny.

"Absolutely, we're the target. We're the enemy," Murtha said. "(The Iraqis) are a proud people, they've been around a lot longer than we have. They've going to win this themselves, they're going to settle this themselves. They have to, there's no alternative."

Murtha said he believes President Bush needs to realize how citizens feel about the war.

"All of us want to support the president when he's at war," Murtha said "But you can't support him when he won't change directions, won't listen."

*****end of clip*****

He is right except that Bush does not care what the people think. It is all big business and neochronic ideologues.

The slime machine does not eat Marines. This is an honest man and it shows.

capt

"It is characteristic of the military mentality that nonhuman factors (atom bombs, strategic bases, weapons of all sorts, the possession of raw materials, etc) are held essential, while the human being, his desires, and thoughts - in short, the psychological factors - are considered as unimportant and secondary...The individual is degraded...to "human materiel"." ~ Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

"What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy? " ~ Mahatma Gandhi (1869 - 1948), "Non-Violence in Peace and War"

Baf,
Capitalized baf. I wouldn't make a big deal out of it but you made it look like you copy pasted my post.
As for Robert being anti war and anti military ...some of the most anti war men and women I know have served in the military. There is a huge group of Viet Nam Vets who are totally against this war and are supporting the troops by being there for them.
And Baf, just to warn you, they are a group I wouldn't mess with.

Salamin: What's up with you.

Not to difficult to figure out, I fully support the War, hate the deficits, hate the open border, hate the attack on marriage and christmas. There is an on going debate about Iraq. I find that many lefties take political opportunism as to the war, that is necessary, as part of human cultural evolution and necessary for our defense. I think that the lefties and dems do have some very good qualities, especially for defending the poor, and we must not loose their perspective. I am generally hard-right, but find myself in sympathetic views as to the poor, and respect the left's long-standing support for the poor and civil liberties, as long as not over done. But, the negativeness as to the Iraq war is not well received, and I feel compelled to jump in this discussion.

Derrick,
Get your head out of the echo chamber. If Bush had been doing his job 9/11 probably would not have occured. He was ignoring bin Laden. From what I'm reading from James H and Saladin who really was involved in 9/11 anyway?
If you just say it was terrorism the truth of the matter is, no one was watching the store. It was the same convienent incompetence that went on with Katrina.
If you can support this administration after everything that has gone on you have a pretty comfortable life.

Jeanne, bush WAS doing his job, that's WHY 9/11 occurred!

Capt,

perhaps you are confusing our frustration over US dead, with goals of civilized democratization of the islamo-facist mulsim world. This is certainly the struggle this day. You can have both, you know. Everyone wants the US out of there, the issue is under what conditions. What I particularly like, is the rise of terrorist condemnation, now being projected from Jordan in earnest, and else where in the Muslim world. I know it is difficult to see any good, and stay the course, when US soldiers die, but we are winning both the war, and the hearts and minds, though it does seem very slow progress. But really, we have no choice, not after 9/11. I know its tuff, both cowarding in our caves as did the neanderthals, would only be a set back, saving the war to a later time, and at a higher cost.

9/11 occurred because the peace guy from fairykerryland cut the intel budget for decades.

Correction, 9/11 occurred because of 2 things, first was the cut in the intel budget, the other was for our mistaken foreign policy of supporting strong-man rule to keep trade lanes open, feeding resentment in the muslim world having no means to address problems polically resulting in terror and a political statement. "Death to America" anyone? The correct policy is to support strong man rule, only if they agree to democractic reforms, ala, Musharruf in pakistan, looking to buy 50Bln worth or our jet planes. We have to learn from our mistakes.

WHAT IT IS!!

I see that the Kool-Aid line has gotten longer since my last post!!

Maybe the b#$ch-made sheep should know that their chickenhawk neo-con heroes like "Uncle Dick" Cheney(5 draft defs.);"The Drunk West Texas Prairie Monkey, Bush The Dumb-Ass"; "Dopeman" Limbaugh (4F for having a boil on his fat asscheek)Wolfowitz, Perle, Novak, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Rove and other assorted pundits, media whores and c$%ksuckers who ducked Uncle Ho and the 'Cong. Then again, the sheep will love those bastards anyway, you abusive wife-actin' 'lil bit$hes!!

show me the proof, I'm still waiting.

bro.tex, where ya been? How's things in Ft Worth? Been missin ya! As you can see, the sheeple never change. We are the good guys and everyone else sucks!

Sure, the islamic world has its jidhadist culture, and that is the source of the war on terror. But had we over the last 50 years supported strong-man rule for immediate peace only if they in turn implement democractic reforms, the resulting political discussions, may have produced a more tolerant Islamic world, without the need for a war at this later time. But what is done is done, and we cant go back, but we can learn from our mistakes.

Bro.tex,

Howzit!

Hope you all are doing fine, just like mine!

capt

No, I am not locked in, and dont drink kool-aid. I would not have voted at all in the last election, but when the dem nominated an anti-war anti-intel peace guy, at a time of war, I got motivated, and campaigned for Bush. I could not believe that the dem would be so stupid to select Kerry at a time of war. Now, if a moderate Dem, say Liberman, would have been selected, well, I probably would have stayed on the couch. With Hillary becoming of late the war-hawk, deficit-hawk and border-hawk, a little gay bashing (code for defense of marriage), heck she may get my vote, save only one, Dr. Rice, having good foreign relation experience in this day of globalization. Dont confuse strong support for the war, as being a Kool-aid mentality, for what it is really is, just I say call Kerry an anti-war peace guy, for what he really is.

ha ha! - 911 occurred because of a cut in the intel budget - that must be why the airforce was unable to intercept the highjacked 767's and the 757 - - they couldn't afford it! - -
un-fucking-real.

#137

The answer to the question, why don't I just have a beer or two before lunch..........

god help us if it comes down to a choice between hillary and con rice

James, I thought they all had a hangover that day! So much for the worlds most bad-ass Airforce!

#130

just to warn you, they are a group I wouldn't mess with.

Ya becasue if they are "just being there" for GWOT vets, then they are crazy as shit house rats and you are quite correct that you don't want to mess or be near them.

Iraqi leaders agree first reconciliation goals

CAIRO (AFP) - Iraqi leaders put persistent differences to one side to agree their first joint statement on how to end conflict between their communities and achieving national reconciliation.

A statement supported by Christian, Shiite, Sunni and Kurdish leaders after talks in Cairo demanded a timetable for the withdrawal of foreign troops, the release of prisoners and a programme for rebuilding Iraq's armed forces.

The talks sponsored by the Arab League marked another stage in the return of the disempowered Sunni Arab minority in the political arena, although nobody represented the armed insurgency during the meetings.

However leaders were also unable to mask lingering differences between their communities over the three days of talks, which begun under the shadow of a weekend of violence in Iraq and were marred by a brief walkout by the Shiites.

In a final statement, a copy of which was obtained by AFP, they demanded "a timetable for the immediate withdrawal of foreign troops."

*****end of clip*****

Let us consider: the American public wants us out of Iraq, our military leaders want us out of Iraq, The Iraqi leadership wants us out of Iraq, the Iraqi people want us out of Iraq.

Sooner or later the troops will have a timetable to withdraw why not sooner? One cannot be pro-war and pro-troops. To "support the troops" means to not have them in harms way for no reason.

We should stay because Bunnypants wants to "stay the course" in opposition to everybody? Stay what course? What is his plan? There must be an exit strategy complete with a timetable.

capt

James, I have been watching Condi carefully, and she is actually really good. After Russia exclaims they wont bow dont to anyone, not even the US after Condi's trip, hours later Iran say it will go back to negotiating table. She got an agreement to border crossing in Gaza. She is on her fact, stands her ground, and understands the issues very well. I think Congress can handle tax and spend, but foreign affairs is important in this day of globalization. I am white and hard-right, but would support a Rice-Cox ticket in 08 as a republican dream ticket. I wonder if US is ready for a woman, and a black women at that, but for now, she is my horse.

reid 140 -
good point!

But had we over the last 50 years supported strong-man rule for immediate peace only if they in turn implement democractic reforms, the resulting political discussions, may ....

In 1999, Bush Demanded A Timetable

In 1999, George W. Bush criticized President Clinton for not setting a timetable for exiting Kosovo, and yet he refuses to apply the same standard to his war.

George W. Bush, 4/9/99:

"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is."

And on the specific need for a timetable, here is what Bush said then and what he says now:

George W. Bush, 6/5/99

"I think it's also important for the president to lay out a timetable as to how long they will be involved and when they will be withdrawn."

[ed. note: article originally ran in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer on 6/5/99]

VERSUS

George W. Bush, 6/24/05:

"It doesn't make any sense to have a timetable. You know, if you give a timetable, you're - you're conceding too much to the enemy."

*****end of clip*****

Interesting argument between Bush and Bush.

Nothing like being consistent.

At least it seems like Bunnypants can contract "you are" eh? HA!

capt

Ever meet an engineer who couldn't spell engineer? How many times would an engineer have seen the word, beginning sometime in high school when the vocation was chosen, throughout college, and later on, during training and employment? Hmmmm.

Just what are the "rouge countries" anyway? The ones with the most makeup?

How does one "go to far" with civil liberties, anyway?

I bet someone has been violating the school libraries' internet usage policy. Naughty naughty.

Hi James, Jeanne, Sal, Robert, Capt, Riff, et al! Buddies!

con rice?
she's a pretty good piano player for a lying neo-con PNAC wanna-be.

...but, does yuh HAS a pie-anna?

...Yosemite Sam

If Zarqawi did not exist, the Bush Administration would have to invent him. Or, rather, since Al Qaeda did not exist, the Reagan Administration had to invent it, and the Bush Administration exploit it. This will continue to be the case, whether or not Zarqawi is around. In fact, since bin Laden is more valuable to the Bushies as a symbol, I presume we will learn that "Zarqawi narrowly escaped death" and will remain a threat for the next time we need him.

click my name to order the FREE DVD:
'CONFRONTING THE EVIDENCE:Reopen 911'
if you believe the govt. fairy tale.

Capt: We should stay because Bunnypants wants to "stay the course" in opposition to everybody? Stay what course? What is his plan? There must be an exit strategy complete with a timetable.

OK, capt, we stand down as they stand up, is stay the course. Is that difficult to understand? I dont think so. You want precision, a specified time table, during war, that is messy, and never goes as planned, is asking too much specificity. I think it good that the Arabs are collectively requesting a US withdrawal, as quid pro quo, for an end to violence against the Iraqi government, as the objectives are really the same!! So, it seems to me, that everyone is going in the same directions, save the terrorists in Iraq. Its looking good to me, as concensous build in the middle east, that is, after all, feeding the actions in Iraq to some extent. When, terrorist loose support, as the US occupation looses support, both will occur. Its kinda like N.Korea, you first dismantle your nuclear program, and we will provide you economic assistance. It seems we are going in the same directions, it is preception of course. But, its looking good to me, in the long run.

Hey Robb, how goes it? I was wondering those very same things. I have become bored enough to scroll past now. I keep hoping for some irrefutable proof regarding Osama in a cave with a cell phone, but I guess I will give up now!

Kevin, rather than invent an unknown enemy and raises your blood pressure over being in a war, try to imagine, a collaspe of the insurgency, and a subsequent US withdrawal, a functional Iraqi democratic government, based on that collaspe, and the spill over affect. Let be reminded about the demostration in Egypt this day, as they too face the challeges associated with democracy. The news this day that Zarqawi's famility dis-own him, the jordian outrage against the terrorism, are very good signs. The death of Zaqarwi, would be a big plus, of course to Bush, and helps us down the path to a withdrawal. Hang on a little more, and stay the course, progress is being made.

Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Libby, Bush,
Rove.

While thousands of US military servicemembers
awaited their next orders, the Powers-That-
Be in Washington D.C. decided who would
get a big contract to do private security work on the ground in Iraq . With American taxpayers' money. That's betrayal. Long-term
and severe. With the consequences of losing the willingness of American teenagers to participate in the farce of bringing 'democracy ' to faraway land (s).
Democracy is threatened by our leaders in THIS land. D'oh

Anderson Petition
www.warisaracket.org

I am at # 102, where's you at ?

Iraq leaders demand pullout timetable

Monday 21 November 2005, 21:36 Makka Time, 18:36 GMT

Iraqi leaders have put persistent differences to one side and agreed on their first joint statement, calling for a timetable for the withdrawal of foreign troops from the country.

Christian, Shia, Sunni and Kurdish leaders also on Monday demanded the release of prisoners and a programme for rebuilding Iraq's armed forces after talks in Cairo aimed at ending conflict between their communities and achieving national reconciliation.

At the end of the three-day meeting sponsored by the Cairo-based Arab League, the Iraqi leaders called for the withdrawal of US and British forces from Iraq by immediately setting a timetable for gradually rebuilding Iraq's armed forces.

They condemned attacks on Iraqi civilians, government institutions and oil installations and called for the release of all detainees held without trial.
-------------
Now, the US majority wants us out and Iraq wants us out. We will see just what this so-called "demockracy" is really made of!

Salamen,

Ask the gased Kurds, or the swamp Arabs, or the Iranians, or the Kuwaties.

You cant be serious?

Not everyone that catches a Liberal in one of their many lies is a conservative right winger.

You CornNuts seem to think that anyone who exposes all the Left wing lies, is against Liberals, and therefore must be a Conservative, or the whistle blower on those Liberal lies would just let the lies pass as truth.

Bill O"Reilly is not a Conservative, just because he points out all the many many lies of the Left.

He is not a Liberal because he would point out a Conservative lie, if Conservatives ever were to take on that habitual Liberal trait of continual lying.

salad man #161

Your forgetting one thing Congress voted Friday- by a majority (403-3) to keep us there. So your argument about the majority isn't valid. I am just curious who the lefties consider the bad guys in the war on terror? All I hear from you guy's is how great Saddam is and that Zarqawi doesn't exist. I suppose the beheading of Daniel Pearl was just a big conspiricy by Bush.When the facts are layed out on the table you fools can't answer back.

The millions of marchers in Syria, Iran, and Saudi Arabia, daily, demanding that the USA arrive and remove the current leaders of those countries ARE TELLING YOU WHAT THEY WANT.
They want what Iraq has. They want what Iraq has. They want what Iraq has. They want what Iraq has. Except that the marchers are not marching, and the citizenry of Syria, Iran, and Saudi Arabia
DO NOT want what Iraq has. Fact.

Anderson Petition

Imagine being called a coward by someone not posting under his/her own name.

Baffling.

POLL ALERT !@#$ Watch out, this is an unscientific poll on AOL of us plain ol' common people. Wish it was the "official" kind, but us commoners aren't smart enough to know better.

Do you think the White House misled the public in its case for war?
Yes 68%
No 32%
Total Votes: 203,902

Do you approve of the way the U.S. is handling the Iraq War?
No 77%
Yes 23%
Total Votes: 97,975

Do congressmen who voted for the war have a right to question it now?
Yes 80%
No 20%
Total Votes: 97,422

Do you think it is time to withdraw U.S. troops from Iraq?
Yes 65%
No 35%
Total Votes: 95,955

Which party is more responsible for the inflamed rhetoric?
Republicans 66%
Democrats 34%
Total Votes: 49,021

and an added new question...

Do you think charges that the White House misled the public about the war are out of bounds?
No 77%
Yes 23%
Total Votes: 5,770

Bill Clinton waffles on Iraq " It could still work" Doofus alert for all you lefties.

166 Yes, baffling indeed, yet it is a common "modus operandi" on this blog - fake name, occupation, email etc. accompanied by unshakeable faith in their stated positions and convictions. Why would one so sure of themselves need to fabricate an identity to lend credence to their opinions or even hide altogether? Deep down they know they are full of it? If that be the case, why come here? Are they so lonely and neglected that any attention, even negative, is desirable? Well, we must nurture and hug them, and help them feel better about themselves, no? Perhaps arrange therapy for them like we do for terrorists? ;)

#151
Capt,
He went to Harvard and Yale after all.

We all know the call for a pull-out by Murdhal is part of a comprehensive Dem political 06 strategy, pandering those who are furstrated over US deaths. Look, the dems are playing up the war frustration for the 06 election. Pandering, saying one thing for political support, yet voting another way. This will be seen for the ploy it is. Kasinich I am sure voted his conscience, and voted to pull out, and I at least admire him for being true to himself, the other dems are disgraceful panderers.

Hey, did not you all just love chenny's speech this day. Yeah, I know, I had tingles all over as well, just like you all did. OK then, all together .. HIP HIP ...

Robert S

If your not good enough to spar with me on the internet what makes you think you can handle me in person.

Some troll poster mentioned Sulu?

Ah, Condi the brain of a diplomat and so very nice even though she has her many moods shame is not one of them. What planes ? So easy to mock even TDS has her down pat, cartoonist can rhyme and we know she has a plan even if a bit of a stretch and she comes across as the grinch that stole happiness from her own world. Like the (not so) incredible hulk instead of fighting for the truth she is just another WH parrot.

Still she is popular although no intern failure is success and she is a kind of an angel that has so far escaped justice never held to account for her beingnumber 1 and in the face of her lies Bush taps her on the shoulder and says boo but she is not scared not even by the sinking SOS (Ship of State) and the high marks for no domestic concern or the Bush’≥ cat food.

She is after all insolent I swear although she has a plan in case of impeachment service can be its own reward, true enough but WTF? this is her happy face and the size of the presidential prerogative is that big?

They dream dreams of being 007 types and Condi see herself as Condi Croft but when you share bangs with Bolton and everybody else see you as Golum the concerns about design, intelligent or otherwise is a silly moot argument.

capt

Anderson Petition:

Nice little picture, but here is the catch, if they marched in syria, iran or saudi arbia, they would be shoot dead, get it? didnt think so. There was NO CHANCE whatsoever that a rebellion in Iraq would occur all by itself. But, you know, you were close in your corrupted picture. Did you notice this day, in egypt, where there are some democratic refroms, that the Arab-Brotherhood was marching and demostrating. You were close, but missed the FULL PICTURE. Good try, though, at least you have on a thinking cap.

Robb #169

Is that all you've got? My fourteen year old could do better than that. Like I said if you can't handle me in a spar as a poster-what's the point?

I am sure as evidenced here, your 14 yo would wax his daddy, with ease. More edumacated I am sure.

Hey Capt,

have you noticed that Russia is calling for more asserted UN action on the war on terror, that France is pushing UN investigation into Syria assignations of lebanon MP, for British-French-German push for Iran to limit its nukes program, that Kafi anna is now willing to support US reforms? Now, could Bolton have encouraged any of this???? Bolton is great for the UN, we need a butt kicker in there, who appears to be working magic.

Mr. D.M. Reid:

You come accross as a apologist for President Bush. In your eyes he can do no wrong and is not responsible for the negative results of his policies and actions.

I'm shocked you havent started blaming the "MSM" or the so-called mainstream media, who according to repubs/cons have a vendetta against republicans /Bush, not to mention a agreement with the dnc to deliberately slant the news against bush and the republicans, which you call "liberal media bias.

left angle #178

You finally got something right-MSM is a bunch of liberal rags- I agree!!!

You know, you guys are so quick to condemn based on ideology, but let looks at RESULTS:

Afghanstan is democractic.
OBL is hiding out.
Al queda killers are being taken down, one by one.
Ilamo-facist are losing hearts and minds.
Iraq is getting close to being democractic.
UN is getting focused on war on terror, and reform.
China is pushing N.Korea.
Russia is pushing Iran.

Look, i know it difficult to see results when US soldiers die, but it is not all going to hell in a hand basket. The functioning CORE (russia-china-EU-India-USA-Japan-Australia inter alia) all live in relative peace with each other, and we are bringing the GAP (africa and middle east) into the civilized fold. It going great, if you look at history in terms of decades and the daily count of US dead.

Several Polls were taken with the first question of:

1. Do you consider yourself a Liberal or Conservative, (If answered Conservative, the
Poll taker hung up)

The following results are how Liberals only, answered the following Poll questions.

Do you think the White House misled the public in its case for war?
Yes 68%
No 32%
Total Votes: 203,902

Do you approve of the way the U.S. is handling the Iraq War?
No 77%
Yes 23%
Total Votes: 97,975

Do congressmen who voted for the war have a right to question it now?
Yes 80%
No 20%
Total Votes: 97,422

Do you think it is time to withdraw U.S. troops from Iraq?
Yes 65%
No 35%
Total Votes: 95,955

Which party is more responsible for the inflamed rhetoric?
Republicans 66%
Democrats 34%
Total Votes: 49,021

and an added new question...

Do you think charges that the White House misled the public about the war are out of
bounds?
No 77%
Yes 23%
Total Votes: 5,770

Left Angle

BS:
I consider Bush's inaction on the southern border as TREASON!!!!
I consider the Republican creates deficits to be OUTRAGEOUS.

Bush dont get a pass from me because he is a republican, as to the WAR, I stand behind the commander in chief, on that one.

Cheney Again Defends Bush's Iraq Policy

Monday, November 21, 2005

"It is a dangerous illusion that another retreat by the civilized world would satisfy the appetite of terrorists .. We will not retreat in the face of adversity."

The debate over Iraq policy turned more bitter after Murtha called for Bush to remove troops from Iraq within six months. Republicans called Murtha's position one of abandonment and surrender and suggested that the decorated Marine Corps veteran of the Vietnam War and like-minded politicians were acting cowardly.

On Sunday, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, disagreeing with Murtha, said he is not budging from the Bush administration's position that senior commanders know best.

Rumsfeld said troop levels will remain at 160,000 as Iraqis prepare for elections Dec. 15, and forces will return to a baseline strength of 130,000 when the commanders there determine that conditions on the ground warrant a drawdown. Pentagon policy has long based significant redeployments on the situation at hand.

*****end of clip*****

OMG, the idiot is still fighting the Vietnam war?

Yeah, let us wait until we have 58,000 dead troops and millions of dead Iraqis. Stay the course of course.

Too easy for the chicken-hawks and armchair generals to "stay their course" sitting in their armchairs and never counting the bodybags.

Self marginalized by continuing to support failed leaders and failed policies, they come here so spread their pathetic plaintiff piffle posts.

Keep in mind the reason they sound so juvenile is because they are juvenile. No adult speaks with childish school-yard taunts, no adult makes up facts or refuses to face facts once presented.

Political discourse demands respectful communication and a cogent presentation of beliefs based on facts.

The trolls lose on all counts. Just a waste of bandwidth and oxygen.

capt

Can,

Our founding fathers reconized the need for a COMMANDER IN CHEIF. His job is not to blindly follow the polls, but to make decisions, as he alone is responsible for the conduct of war after authorization. You need a class in American civics.

CIC = Coward in Crawford.

Hide behind the monkey-boy that hides behind his door from the mother of a fallen hero.

Very manly!

If you stand behind a coward you are just a coward too.

Something to think about.

capt

hey Hajji,

Capt is calling you a juvenile.

Derrick 184

READ THE FIRST 6 LINES OF # 181

I know you want to be fast, but always read the ENTIRE post before answering

capt

I would rather be a Bush monkey boy than a David Cornhole - butt monkey.

Cheney: Murtha a 'patriot,' war debate legitimate

Monday, November 21, 2005

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Vice President Dick Cheney continued the Bush administration's efforts Monday to pull back on attacks against a decorated war veteran who called for the near-term withdrawal of U.S. troops in Iraq.

But Cheney, in a speech in Washington, excoriated lawmakers who say the United States misused intelligence in the lead-up to the war, calling such complaints "dishonest and reprehensible."

"A few politicians are suggesting these brave Americans were sent into battle for a deliberate falsehood. This is revisionism of the most corrupt and shameless variety. It has no place anywhere in American politics, much less in the United States Senate," he told the American Enterprise Institute, a conservative think tank.

He used the top of his speech -- televised live by CNN and other news networks -- to praise U.S. Rep. John Murtha, "my friend and former colleague." The 17-term Pennsylvania Democrat made news last week when he called for U.S. forces to leave Iraq over a six-month period.

"I disagree with Jack and believe his proposal would not serve the best interest of this nation. But he's a good man, a Marine, a patriot, and he's taking a clear stand in an entirely legitimate discussion," Cheney said.

President Bush similarly praised Murtha on Sunday while on his trip to Asia

*****end of clip*****

I guess the "Michael Moore" and looney lefty comments were out of line. The coward comments from the freshman representative retracted.

I anxiously await the correction and apologies from the trolls for their pathetic insults. . . . (crickets chirpping)

Murtha is a vet, he served. That is what this WH resents the most because none of them can back-up to where they have never been, nor teach what they never have known.

None of the chicken-hawks can ever be a veteran, not AWOL-Bunnypants, not Darth Cheney, not one of the wannbe cowboy fluffers in the west wing.

They hate and despise the real heroes.

capt

Capt,

If, like you, one jacks-off while thinking of David Corn, you are just a perv.

"Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength." ~ Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

Or a very young mans imitation of age?

capt

at #171 Look, the dems are playing up the war frustration for the 06 election. Pandering, saying one thing for political support, yet voting another way. This will be seen for the ploy it is.

And yet Murtha said he thinks our troops will be outta there by the end of '06. Russert tried to nail down details by asking... "In time for the november elections?" answer: "You've hit the nail on the head."
Sounds like the repugs are planning a little 'bring 'em home soon' political ploy of their own. What would you say then, if it turns into the repugs political strategy to 'cut and run'? Would you be slamming them, wanting troops to stay when even your leaders now don't see feel that way?

Capt

Nice quote.
Are you typing with one hand as usual?

CAN, got it.

Hey, has anyone noticed that there has not been a signficant terror attack in the US. Is that because of a Zawaqari does not want to piss off the anti-war gang, or is Bush a protector with his forward defense action in the middle east.
If Zawaqari is dead, the insurgency would implode, and the withdrawal expedited, and at least hope you lefties are hoping he is DEAD.

capt

Murtha is a vet and should be held in high respect. It was wrong to make those comments which is why they were stricken. What's pathetic are all the Lefty Dems who never served, hiding behind Murthas veteran status to act so outraged. Their phonies.

Alan, you are on to something!!!

The republican leadership know they are in a good position to recover in the polls in time for the 06 election, by a planned withdrawal of substantial numbers prior to then, and the dem see it coming and our trying to trump it, by saying it was their pressure that led to the withdrawal. GAMEMANSHIP on both sides, but what is so new about that.

Davis, Waxman, Sensenbrenner, Conyers, Boehlert, and Gordon React to GAO Report on Security Problems With Electronic Voting Systems

"It is certainly disappointing that, despite the recommendations from federal organizations and non-governmental groups, many states still have not made progress to make sure their electronic voting systems are safe from fraud and can be relied on to accurately count votes," Chairman Davis said. "However, I am pleased that the EAC is continuing to push states to improve their voting systems and comply with the requirements of the Help Americans Vote Act (HAVA). American’s voting system must be made to be world class, everywhere in the country, as soon as possible."

"The GAO report indicates that we need to get serious and act quickly to improve the security of electronic voting machines," said Rep. Waxman. "The report makes clear that there is a lack of transparency and accountability in electronic voting systems – from the day that contracts are signed with manufacturers to the counting of electronic votes on Election Day. State and local officials are spending a great deal of money on machines without concrete proof that they are secure and reliable. American voters deserve better."

Chairman Sensenbrenner said, "The Founders established the states as the entity primarily responsible for the administration of both federal and state elections. While Congress has provided direction through HAVA and federal grants to modernize state election systems, some states continue to drag their feet in preventing voting compilation errors and eliminating questionable voter registration and poll day procedures. In my home state of Wisconsin, the current Governor has done his best to block the legislature's efforts to implement voting reforms conforming with HAVA guidelines, despite evidence of widespread voter fraud in Milwaukee in recent elections. The EAC will have to push hard to overcome the resistance of those who rely on outmoded and unreliable voting practices to keep themselves in power."

"I am shocked at the extent and nature of problems GAO has identified in our electronic voting systems, and I fear that this may just be the tip of the iceberg," said Rep. Conyers. "It is totally unacceptable that in 21st century American we would allow faulty machines and systems to rob citizens of their voting rights. While GAO offers some modest recommendations for improvement, it is incumbent upon Congress to respond to this problem and to enact much-needed reforms such as a voter verified paper audit trail that protects all Americans’ right to vote."

*****end of clip*****

I hope we are ready for 2006?

The landslide for the neocons will defy all logic, all polls, all informal counts, the results will defy reality.

They will say the same things and delay until the votes are certified, then no court can undo what will be done.

The criminals are in charge of enforcing election law. What do we expect? A clean, above-board election with verifiable accounting? Too late now to even implement the suggestions before 2006.

Neocon super-majority. Prepare yourselves, it is coming. When the ends justify the means anything for the head of the crime family. The larger the crime the bigger the reward. Many are more than willing to do anything, lawful or otherwise to serve their messianic master.

Talk about blind lemmings?

capt

capt

Murtha is a vet and should be held in high respect. It was wrong to make those comments which is why they were stricken. What's pathetic are all the Lefty Dems who never served, hiding behind Murthas veteran status to act so outraged. Their phonies.

Randall, back off, what capt does behind closed doors is his concern, as long as he dont want my tax dollars to support immoral cohabitation or flamming parades on downtown streets.

Several Polls were taken with the first question of:

1. Do you consider yourself a Liberal or Conservative, (If answered Conservative, the
Poll taker hung up)

Welllll, lemme guess, you made that up.
haha It was and is, an online poll. Didya really think they made that many phone calls??
Did it knock conservatives offline?
*laughs again*

The Great Debate of Our Season

"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."

THOSE WORDS, PENNED IN ARTICLE 11 of the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli, are as succinct a statement as we have from the Founding Fathers on the role of religion in our government. Their authorship is ascribed variously to George Washington, under whom the treaty was negotiated, or to John Adams, under whom it took effect, or sometimes to Joel Barlow, U.S. consul to Algiers, friend of Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine, and himself no stranger to the religious ferment of the era, having served as a chaplain in the Revolutionary Army. But the validity of the document transcends its authorship for a simple reason: it was ratified. It was debated in the U.S. Senate and signed into law by President Adams without a breath of controversy or complaint concerning its secular language, and so stands today as an official description of the founders’ intent.

And it wouldn’t stand a chance in the government of the country we’ve become.

This issue of Mother Jones is dedicated to illuminating the interplay between conservative Christianity and the U.S. government. We regard the movement’s history, chart its arteries of funding and influence, and locate its wellsprings of support and aspiration. And we also show how such national issues as Intelligent Design and the death penalty are being debated within the church. It’s been more than 200 years since the founders established the separation of church and state. The assault on that principle now under way promises to alter not only our form of government but our concept of religion as well.

*****end of clip*****

Where are the Christian loves of peace and freedom?

I am still waiting to hear from our American Christian leaders about why Jesus would support war? People are dying and Jesus said we are all God’s children. So why are we killing innocents and calling them collateral?

Pro-war is not pro-life.

Pro-war is not (nor has it ever been) a Christian value.

Pro-war is pro-death and anti-support for the troops. They are the ones dying.

Pro-war is Kkkristo-fascism and the pro-war faction is very confused or simply evil.

Take your pick!

capt

The Great Debate of Our Season

"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."

THOSE WORDS, PENNED IN ARTICLE 11 of the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli, are as succinct a statement as we have from the Founding Fathers on the role of religion in our government. Their authorship is ascribed variously to George Washington, under whom the treaty was negotiated, or to John Adams, under whom it took effect, or sometimes to Joel Barlow, U.S. consul to Algiers, friend of Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine, and himself no stranger to the religious ferment of the era, having served as a chaplain in the Revolutionary Army. But the validity of the document transcends its authorship for a simple reason: it was ratified. It was debated in the U.S. Senate and signed into law by President Adams without a breath of controversy or complaint concerning its secular language, and so stands today as an official description of the founders’†intent.

And it wouldn’¥ stand a chance in the government of the country we’∂e become.

This issue of Mother Jones is dedicated to illuminating the interplay between conservative Christianity and the U.S. government. We regard the movement’≥ history, chart its arteries of funding and influence, and locate its wellsprings of support and aspiration. And we also show how such national issues as Intelligent Design and the death penalty are being debated within the church. It’≥ been more than 200 years since the founders established the separation of church and state. The assault on that principle now under way promises to alter not only our form of government but our concept of religion as well.

*****end of clip*****

Where are the Christian loves of peace and freedom?

I am still waiting to hear from our American Christian leaders about why Jesus would support war? People are dying and Jesus said we are all God's children. So why are we killing innocents and calling them collateral? Could it be that some see the color of their skin before the content of their character?

Pro-war is not pro-life.

Pro-war is not (nor has it ever been) a Christian value.

Pro-war is pro-death and anti-support for the troops. They are the ones dying.

Pro-war is Kkkristo-fascism and the pro-war faction is very confused or simply evil.

Take your pick!

capt

Ask the gased Kurds, or the swamp Arabs, or the Iranians, or the Kuwaties

ask them what? ask them who supplied the gas to Saddam for the gassings? or maybe ask the kuwaties who gave Saddam the go-ahead to invade them?

A Nation Under God

Let others worry about the rapture: For the increasingly powerful Christian Reconstruction movement, the task is to establish the Kingdom of God right now—from the courthouse to the White House.

By John Sugg

Reconstruction is the spark plug behind much of the battle over religion in politics today. The movement’s founder, theologian Rousas John Rushdoony, claimed 20 million followers—a number that includes many who embrace the Reconstruction tenets without having joined any organization. Card-carrying Reconstructionists are few, but their influence is magnified by their leadership in Christian right crusades, from abortion to homeschooling.

Reconstructionists also exert significant clout through front organizations and coalitions with other religious fundamentalists; Baptists, Anglicans, and others have deep theological differences with the movement, but they have made common cause with its leaders in groups such as the National Coalition for Revival. Reconstruction has slowly absorbed, congregation by congregation, the conservative Presbyterian Church in America (not to be confused with the progressive Presbyterian Church [USA]) and has heavily influenced others, notably the Southern Baptists.

*****end of clip*****

Another good piece from MoJo!

capt

BAF,

I dont think it was wrong form Schmidt R-OH to view Murdahl's cut-and-run proposal as a surrender, which is legitimate as a proposed course of action. Glad to see in went down big.
What makes the Murdal's proposal so reprehensible is that it is part of political pandering "Bush Lied Soldiers Lie", the collective assult is the feeding that Bush lied Americans into a deadly and unwinnable war. That is, collectively one can only conclude that Bush is a murderer and the height of terrorism. Well, it needs to be said, that, Wars are deadly, Bush did not start it, to wit, 3000 dead in NY. Bush did not lie, and it is unpatriotic to so say. And the war is nearly won, (just in time for the Dems to call for a withdrawal). Murdhal per se is not unpatriotic, it is the collective assult on the presidency, that is.

and the dem see it coming and our trying to trump it, by saying it was their pressure that led to the withdrawal. GAMEMANSHIP on both sides, but what is so new about that.

You didn't answer the question. Will you still be blogging here for our troops to stay, when your leaders are saying the opposite?

Say nothing of my religion. It is known to God and myself alone. Its evidence before the world is to be sought in my life: if it has been honest and dutiful to society the religion which has regulated it cannot be a bad one.
Thomas Jefferson

Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
Thomas Jefferson

No man is allowed to be a judge in his own cause, because his interest would certainly bias his judgment, and, not improbably, corrupt his integrity. With equal, nay with greater reason, a body of men are unfit to be both judges and parties at the same time.
James Madison (1751 - 1836), The Federalist, Paper # 10

Capt,

If you and your boyfriend are walking down the sidewalk, and someone throws a rock at you, you jump out of the way, and it accidentally hits your boyfriend, SHOULD YOU BE ARRESTED FOR CAUSING YOUR BOYFRIENDS INJURY?

You seem to think that way about our troops.

Jon Stewart "The Daily Show" on "the door to freedom":

"Speaking in Asia, Bush criticized China: 'As China reforms its economy, its leaders are finding that once the door to freedom is opened even a crack, it cannot be closed.' Ironically, why can't that freedom door be closed? Because it's made in China."

HA!

capt

James Ha,

Now we have to start your education, ok, lets take the term "causation".

Hilter's mom is guilty of the holocaust because, had it not been BUT FOR her having the birth of Herr hilter, the holocaust would not have happened. Understand. You have to look at PROXIMAL CAUSATION. Does a gun manufacturer ever commit murder when a sold gun is used in a homicide. We may have sold weapons to Saddam, but those sells did not come with the condition that he must use them to kill.

Now, even assuming that your underlying premises are true, (and I reject all of them) did that give Saddam an acceptable excuse to kill 1000000 muslims? .

COMMANDER IN CHEIF. His job is not to blindly follow the polls, but to make decisions, as he alone is responsible for the conduct of war after authorization.

now you're getting somewhere... does that include condoning, even encouraging torture? ... or how about the illegal use of white phosphorous?

Car giant GM to cut 30,000 staff

US carmaker General Motors is to cut 30,000 jobs in North America under a restructuring drive that aims to revive the company.

The automotive group, which is struggling to stem huge losses, will also close down nine assembly, stamping and Powertrain engine-maker facilities.

The move along with other cutbacks should help reduce costs by $7bn a year by 2006 - $1bn more than first planned.

GM has suffered falling sales, a drop in market share and high labour costs.

*****end of clip*****

The economy is just starting to feel the impact of high gas/fuel oil and natural gas gouging by big oil (read: Bush and friends).

Mismanaged foreign policy, mismanaged finances, mismanaged lies.

Our proud Andover-cheerleader is the mismanager and thief.

capt

Alan,

I have argued that monentum of Iraqi training and the momentum of democratization is such that Iraq will complete its democratization in the face of a substantial withdrawal next year, and that those troops should be placed on the sourther border, prior to the 06 election, as part of a GOP strategy. I expect there to be a reduction next year, we all do, and Rumsfield is starting it by 30000 in January 06. If bush then says, well the 30000 will go into Syria, or if appears that insurgency in increasing then, I will need to see the justification. But As I see it, the insurgency mostly kill muslim that Iraqi can do the patrol. I am calling for an 06 withdrawal of 100,000 with 50,000 remanining in isolated bases, not doing the routine patrols, to limit US deaths, while the Iraqi to the patrols, with the US coming in with back up in any stand up fight when called upon by the iraqi command. So, I think its all going great, and expect withdrawal next years. The dems call is consistent with expectation and playing it up for all its worth, but the republican have them, as the withdrawal is already in the cards before the 06 election.

Two incompetent political parties, with a just-win-baby attitude, as I see it.

DMR #205

I agree 100% with your post, which I had said the same thing Sat. I do believe that it is not appropriate as does the administration to call the cowrads - cowards- it is not a good politically correct move to call a spade a spade. The libs start crying if we do that.

...did that give Saddam an acceptable excuse to kill 1000000 muslims?

He killed alotta people, that we can all agree. Do ya think bin Laden loved him for that, or considered him one of the infidels? Islamic radicals considered Saddam what, a brother? As in, let's hook up with a brother and threaten the US? See how stupid your apologies for this clusterfk are? Saddam was a secular tyrant and i'd venture to guess, not even the worst one. Why did we pull troops/equipment/$700 million in 'terror war' money out of Afghanistan and misdirect it to Iraq??? For democracy?
For an Iran-west theocracy? Think maybe oil had sumpn to do with it?

did Saddam kill 1000000 muslims? can you prove that statement?

and the bush41 admin. gave Saddam the okay to invade kuwait, then turned around and used the invasion of kuwait as an excuse to invade iraq -

and going back to proving a statement... can you prove that Islamo fascists were responsible for 911?

James ha

It should include condoning, especially encouraging torture of those who cut the heads off their captives.

As for the use of phosphorous, that is just another one of your (PANIC) conspiracy theories that is so full of shit even you know it.

"...and that those troops should be placed on the sourther border, prior to the 06 election, as part of a GOP strategy."

That sounds exactly like Murtha's idea to me! Your guys changed it, called for a vote on something completely diff...which was why even Murtha voted against it... to try 'n win back some poll points. Quit fkn apologising for their failures dude. Repubs wanna stay the course, remember?

James ha

It should include condoning, especially encouraging torture of those who cut the heads off their captives.

As for the use of phosphorous, that is just another one of your (PANIC) conspiracy theories that is so full of shit even you know it.

capt #203

Hey capt, if you would spend a little more time reading a newspaper instead of watching the Jon Stewart show then you would know that oil and gas are at 4 month lows- that would mean they are for all you economy flunckies. Aren't you a little old to be watching that show? I thought the target audience was teenagers.

prove 1000000 death, no I cant, no one can, it is a guess of course. But you know, 30 years of shite and kurd and political suppression and wars with Iran and Kuwate did result in some deaths would you not agree. I think the official count is near 300,000, ONLY, does that really make a difference to you? What would be your amount deaths before you conclude Saddam had to go? 10,000,000??

Allan: called for a vote on something completely diff

Dang Alan, arnt those Republican sneaky!!! You give them an opportunity, they will take it. What is the saying, All is fair in Love and politics.

LOL, I have always said, the far-left controlling the Rem leadership, is the friend the GOP ever had.

alan # 218

Alan, it's called polictics-incompetance is not a valid excuse.

Heckyl and Jeckyl become more ridiculous with every post.

" All I hear from you guy's is how great Saddam is and that Zarqawi doesn't exist."
"I would rather be a Bush monkey boy than a David Cornhole - butt monkey."
"salad man #161 When the facts are layed out on the table you fools can't answer back."

Funny, that's just what I was thinking about those two.

This is what passes for sparring in the juvenile mind? I think I'll pass.

As for the use of phosphorous, that is just another one of your (PANIC) conspiracy theories that is so full of shit even you know it.

Anita, you need to go back to smacking the gum while reading Teen Magazine. You've already been proven 'full of it' so many times on previous threads, it's hardly worth the comment.
But... you didn't see the Italian documentary, didya? Didya see the Pentagon's after-action reports on the W/P?
These are smart people on this blog, You can't just pop in spouting b/s and not expect to be slapped around a little. James Ha tried to engage you nicely, to help you understand where you were wrong. The rest just ingnore ya. Myself, I just showed you were blatantly wrong on the issue you called me out about, while calling me a 'funny little bastard', if I remember correctly. Otherwise, I would've ignored you too.

Instead of trying to wed gays and remove christmas and god, the dems should stay with helping the poor and reasonable equal rights, and would then regain control if they also encourgage deficit control and border security, THEY CANT WIN ON THE WAR ISSUE, but they dont know it, and are jealous of Bush on the WAR issue. The Budget and Border is where the Republicans have legit exposure.

James ha

These are smart people on this blog
-------------------------
ARE YOU KIDDING? YOU MUST BE.

Smart people? How about ignorant, traitorous anti-America ASSHOLES?

That is accurate.

#51 Won't delve into the specifics of the Illumati, because its out of my league.

But I do think religion may provide a viable means to understand the reality where Plato's Republic, Aristolean civics and Machivelli ethics, Sun Tzu's Art of Warfare are incomplete but not necessarily to be disregarded. In fact that is one of the problems since the enlightenment era, we're too quick to be black and white and drop one view for another.

I been quite struck by two NT Wright books that I recently came across. He is a anglican theologian who I think strikes at the heart and nerves of both the right and the left within the Christian community. His 1st century expertise in explaining the political climate in Israel is quite good. While he focuses on his subject the reader can't help but make modern day comparisons, what he shares counters that of many 'Christian' groups today.

I thought it was real interesting as I read about the battles that the 1st century Pharisees had against Jesus and also against the Romans. They were upset that Jesus didn't support their nationalistic agenda and that he actually undid the temple's role as the central icon for nationalistic and spiritual salvation. Jesus goes about warning of the temple's upcoming destruction and at the same time taking on all the roles normally associated with the temple in keeping one's relationship with God.

I then saw how fundamentalists today seem to want to battle the "US" as their oppressor, and zealously want to have the law enforced in order to make the US a Christian nation, but at the same time seem to reject the long held historical Jesus. In fact some of the folks are bent on rebuilding a temple made of stone and timber rather than embrace the temple that Jesus offerred. Ironically many non-believers today can more easily see Jesus than these fundamentalists can. This was also true in the gospels, Jesus praises many times the faith or wisdom of those outside of Israel (Roman soldiers, the pagan towns of Palestine, Queen of Sheba, etc) for recognizing him as the messiah while his contemporay Jewish leaders did not.

Boy, Seems that Tricky Dick really didn't like Murtha reminding the world that Dick isn't just your run-of-the-mill chickenhawk.

Oh, no. Dick is the 5-deferment variety, a rare species indeed. It's pretty hard to find a chickenhawk who contains that much chicken.

But now he seems determined to show the world what he's really made of -- by unleashing a torrent of stinging adjectives like "reprehensible," "irresponsible," and "utterly false."

See Dick talk. Go Dick, go! You show 'em, tough guy.

Bush Discusses Murtha and Says Progress in Iraq is 'Amazing'

Q If I could follow up on your comments on Congressman Murtha. You said that he was a fine man and that he probably made this in a thoughtful manner. Congressman Murtha has also used the fact that neither you, nor the Vice President, has served in combat as part of his criticism of Iraq policy, as well as the administration's campaign to defend it. Do you believe that that is relevant to the debate? And is there any concern that the attacks on either side are becoming overly personal?

THE PRESIDENT: I don't think the Vice President's service is relevant in this debate. And I would hope all of us in this debate talk about the policy and have an honest, open debate about whether or not it makes sense to immediately withdraw our troops. My position is very clear: It does not make sense. It will make America less secure. Iraq is a battlefront in the war on terror, and it's vital that we succeed in this particular battle in the war on terror.

And our strategy is proceeding. There's a political strategy, and as I said the other day, I said a couple of times, the progress in Iraq is amazing when you think -- the political progress. I mean, they've gone from tyranny to the election of a transitional national government, to the ratification of a constitution. And they're about to have elections again. And all this took place in two-and-a-half years. When you compare it to our own history, our road was quite bumpy getting to a constitution. And so the progress is strong.

The other progress that's being made is the training of the Iraqi forces. And more and more of the forces are more capable of taking the fight to the enemy. And as that happens, and as our commanders on the ground inform me that Iraq's security can be maintained by Iraqi troops, we will adjust accordingly.
----------------------
Vice President's service not relevant? Oh I don't know about that Mr. Bush. When the military has to do somebody else's killing for them the way Cheney has asked the military to do, it would be nice to think that Cheney hadn't gotten 5 deferments.

Cheney never watched somebody die in combat so it's easy not to think about the battle field.

Cheney never ordered men directly under him into combat so it's easy not to think about the future's lost and the hopes gone.

Would he send the young aides working for him in the offices into combat? How about Scott McClellan? That's what war is, sending healthy young men to their death.

I won't even go into the civilian casualties we are asking our military to inflict upon the people of Iraq. Cheney is too clueless to understand the horrors of that.

Even I, who oppose this war can't imagine what Murtha knows about war. The "expert" in war is saying it's time to pull out. We need to pull out.

211

Torture, ok, scenrio, put on your thinking cap, PLEASE

You got a tip, a dirty bomb has been planted in a NY hotel to go off in 30 minutes, and you plant radioactive detectors near entrances of doors, and out runs a contaminated mulsim, now, what do you do, Ship him off to Hotel Quantanamo, or do you take him to a dark room, and put screws to the thumb? I say, screws to the thumbs!!!!

DMR: "THEY CANT WIN ON THE WAR ISSUE, but they dont know it, and are jealous of Bush on the WAR issue."

Heehee. Yes, the Dems no doubt are green with envy over Bush's plummeting poll numbers.

211

Torture, ok, scenrio, put on your thinking cap, PLEASE

You got a tip, a dirty bomb has been planted in a NY hotel to go off in 30 minutes, and you plant radioactive detectors near entrances of doors, and out runs a contaminated mulsim, now, what do you do, Ship him off to Hotel Quantanamo, or do you take him to a dark room, and put screws to the thumb? I say, screws to the thumbs!!!!

Drewp, the polls are a reflection of the Dems' lambasting, is it not. Now, dont get so excited, remember, Reagan got in threw the nation into recession to stop inflation, but by the end of the presidency, he was a hero. Bad polls numbers in mid term, is kinda like a healthy correction in stocks. Its all timing, that was discussion, and as Bush reduces number in Iraq, the polls should improve. Dont get so excited, not just yet.

#211
Ok, I have my thinking cap on.
Let's see...dirty bomb. Torture somebody who I think has the information and he tells me what? Anything I want to hear. Problem is...maybe he isn't the guy we need to talk to so the information sends us in the wrong direction. Problem is...this "terrorist" could refuse to give us the information and give us something that he thinks will make us happy.
Problem is we are creating more terrorists with our actions.
Problem is, it's against the Geneva Conventions.
Problem is, it's not civilized.

jeanne #230

No Cheney wouldn't send any of those people to war, and why is that? Maybe because they did'nt volunteer!! It just pisses you libs off big time that someone would actually volunteer to fight a war. I think your confused with the whole volunteer/draft thing. This is why a women would not make a good commander in chief-your to emotional.

ANITA, are you still high? you might want to try regular water, sometimes that helps.

#211
And another thing...good god you challenge the patience of an intelligent person. If the bomb is going to go off 30 minutes why would you send the person off the "Hotel Quantanamo"? (whatever that is)

drewp

The Dems poll numbers are plummetting also-This because they have no idea how to handle a war on terror-there weak on terror and defense of the nation, which all polls show- since your so big on polls.

#236
your = your
You are = You're
Get it?

218,

I met simply hold him in prison without torture, such as we hold islamo-facists at the marine base at Quantanimo Cuba.

torturing all those Iraqis sure helped find the non-existent WMD's, didn't it? Yet he's worried about gay marriage and losing a pagan holiday. Jesus would be proud!

#227

He did not mean you. That much is obvious by your insulting and meaningless diatribes but I digress.

-george

"your = your
You are = You're
Get it?"

shhhh - do not tell, that is how we can tell it is DOT.

capt

228 -
so it boils down to 2 cons:

the 'power trip'and the 'my god is bigger than yours'?

jeanne 240

Hey jeanne - you keep correcting my grammar and I will keep correcting your ideology and we'll call it even.

Alan,

I know everyone here agrees that the most despicable thing about you is how you light up with glee when another American soldier is killed.

It must be because you think it justifies your traitors view of America.

The fact is history shows GOOD AMERICAN SOLDIERS have always died to protect patriotic Americans and even the likes of you.

It seems to irritate you, that so few American lives have been lost in this minor little Iraqi skirmish to rid the world of terrorists.

As far as American deaths, protecting your rights are concerned, this is the most successful, least American soldier death, action we have ever taken.

It is exactly what we should be doing !

#244
Sorry.

Where the hell is Quantanimo? Is that near Guantanamo?

I think the hall monitor is hot on their trail...

#246
1. It will never be even.
2. I could correct you until doomsday and you still wouldn't get it right.

James wa wa

So it boils down to two libs;

1.) the paranoid schizophrenic &
2.) the emotional paranoid schizophrenic
3.) oh ya then you've got the X-File groupies

Jeanne

You are so wrong - grammar can be taught but a liberal disease of the brain can only be cured by a labotomy. Maybe Zarquawi could help you out with that one.

No, it comes to YOUR VISION OF THE WORLD:

ISLAMO-FACISTS: MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY
CHINA: MONEY DONT BUY EVERYTHING, THAT'S TRUE, BUT
BUSH: LIVE FREE WITH CIVILITY OR I WILL KILL YOU
DEMS: ANY THING TO REGAIN CONTROL
CHIRAC: DONT PLAY WITH GUNS

and so on

Frameshop: The 'Shooting Gallery' Frame

One key aspect of the Iraq debate that is still being defined by the Republicans is the idea that what is happening in Iraq is a 'fight'--a fair fight, even. Once this frame has been established, then any proposal to leave Iraq or to end the mission in Iraq can be easily accused of wanting to walk away from the fight. In debate this past week, the phrase 'cut and run' is being used to establish this entire logic about the war. Previously, the phrase was 'fight them over there, so we don't have to fight them over here,' which is also still showing up from time to time.

The temptation before Democrats is to respond to the accusatory 'cut and run' with something like 'We do not want to cut and run.' But Democrats must avoid this trap at all costs. For the sake of our soldiers in Iraq and for the sake of national security, Democrats must frame the Iraq debate accurately in response to the fraudulent frame of the Republicans.

The accurate way to frame Iraq is to use the 'shooting gallery' frame. The phrase that John Murtha used to invoke this frame so effectively was 'sitting ducks' to describe our soldiers on the ground. This is a good phrase to use and one that is easy to remember as we head into the inevitable Thanksgiving table political debates.

Frame Iraq as a 'shooting gallery' and the logic is that we are fools to just keep our soldiers there while they get picked off like so many tin ducks in a carnival game.

We need to get our soldiers out of there because they are currently trapped in a no-win situation. It's not a fair fight when the enemy takes the form of a teenage girl carrying a basket of laundry that explodes without warning.

To stay in the shooting gallery is just to guarantee that more and more and more soldiers die, because in a shooting gallery the ducks never win.

*****end of clip*****

Nobody wants to go to war (except armchair generals and wacko's)

Watch, let us inquire with some who have actually served. (in my next post)

capt

RED ALERT RED ALERT

Does anyone here have direct contact with Mr. Corn??? If so, please bring this directly to his attention...

SOMEBODY NEEDS TO BREAK THIS STORY

Somebody with national media access, needs to bring this into national consciousness:

It is estimated that Osama Bin Laden killed 2106 Americans on 9-11. After the American body count in Iraq reaches 2107, Bush will be responsible for the deaths of more Americans than Osama Bin Laden. I think that is a simple statistic that the common lunchbucket American could understand. I don't think this milestone should go un-observed.

Bob in North Dakota

citation:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2250513.stm#image

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38249000/gif/_38249511_911_fatalities2_300.gif

jeanne
it will never be even- You do have a long ways to go to catch up, but I am willing to give you a handy cap.

Are any of you folks out on the west coast? My friends Art and Peggy Gish are in San Francisco. They are the folks who have spent so much time in Iraq and Israel.

Peggy will be leaving for Iraq after her stay in S.F. for 4 months (most of her work with the Christian Peace Maker team) has been interviewing and documenting reports of abuse of detainees. THEY WERE DOING THIS BEFORE ANYONE HAD HEARD OF ABU GHARIB...

As I said before Seymour Hersch used some of their reports in articles he wrote for the New YOrker. She is amazing. She has spent 18 months out of the last 3 years in Iraq.

Her husband Art is on his way back to Hebron to due more work as a peace keeper/observer in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.

THEY CAN SHARE AMAZING STORIES AND INSIGHTS....

I just contacted some groups out on the coast..Global Exchange..Code Pink and several other groups, letting them know peggy and art will be out there for about a week.

If any of you want to meet them or have them speak to a group of people. They are amazing. HERE ARE THE PHONE NUMBERS TO CONTACT THEM IN SAN FRAN......415-824-8931 OR 415-206-1289......

Call them if you are of like mind...I have their permission to give these numbers out. They will only be available at these numbers for the week.

Peggy will be in Iraq for four months not S.F.

Congress reduces its oversight role
Since Clinton, a change in focus

By Susan Milligan, Globe Staff | November 20, 2005

WASHINGTON -- Back in the mid-1990s, the Republican-controlled House of Representatives, aggressively delving into alleged misconduct by the Clinton administration, logged 140 hours of sworn testimony into whether former president Bill Clinton had used the White House Christmas card list to identify potential Democratic donors.

In the past two years, a House committee has managed to take only 12 hours of sworn testimony about the abuse of prisoners at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison.

The jarring comparison reflects the way Congress has conducted its oversight role during the GOP's era of one-party rule in Washington.

While congressional committees once were leaders in investigating the executive branch and powerful industries, the current Congress has largely spared major corporations and has done only minimal oversight of the Republican administration, according to a review of congressional documents by The Boston Globe.

An examination of committees' own reports found that the House Government Reform Committee held just 37 hearings described as ''oversight" or investigative in nature during the last Congress, down from 135 such hearings held by its predecessor, the House Government Operations Committee, in 1993-94, the last year the Democrats controlled the chamber.
---------------------------
Cutting down on the oversight certainly has done wonders for the morals of the Republican Party. Now they just get arrested and indicted.

Some major shifts taking place in Israel. Peretz sounds amazing.....He is shaking is up over there..

Ariel Sharon feeling the heat
on both domestic, foreign issues
By Dan Baron
November 14, 2005

JERUSALEM, Nov. 15 (JTA) ・The diplomatic reprieve that followed Israel痴 withdrawal from the Gaza Strip appears to be over, with Ariel Sharon feeling political pressure both at home and from abroad.
The surprise ouster last week of the prime minister痴 coalition partner, Shimon Peres, as chief of the Labor Party has thrown Israeli politics into disarray.

RELATED ARTICLES
Rice seeks ´first downs´ in Mideast
From farmer to powerbroker
Peretz win to bring changes
Peres・successor, trade union leader Amir Peretz, has made clear that he値l take Labor out of the government ・either by agreement or by backing a Knesset no-confidence motion in Sharon.

典he question is not if but when the coalition will fall apart,・a Sharon confidant said Sunday. 撤eretz is most definitely not Peres.・

Sharon long had hinted that his Likud Party痴 alliance with Labor was a marriage of convenience to facilitate the summer pullout from Gaza, but a split this early is more than inconvenient when it comes to peacemaking with the Palestinians.

According to the confidant, Sharon had intended to wait for the outcome of January parliamentary elections in the Palestinian Authority to assess the prospects of new negotiations.

The question is whether Hamas will take part in the Palestinian vote ・and whether its electoral gains will be so great as to rule out any long-term Israeli-Palestinian accord.

A senior U.S. State Department official, speaking before a visit to Israel this week by U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, said there was concern that diplomacy would be hamstrung if Sharon痴 government is toppled and Israel goes to early elections.

展hat we don稚 want here is to be kept in a holding pattern,・the official told reporters.

After Rice extended her visit to help mediate, some progress was made Tuesday when a deal on the Rafah terminal was announced.

Under the deal, a terminal on the Gaza-Egypt border will open by the end of the month, and Palestinians who use the crossing will be monitored by European Union security experts. Israeli officials will be allowed to watch the action at the terminal and ask monitors to search potential terrorist infiltrators or arms smugglers.

Next month, Israel also is to begin allowing Palestinians to travel between Gaza and the West Bank through Israeli territory, in secured convoys.

Opening Gaza痴 borders was deemed a top priority by the Bush administration, which wants to revive the local economy and help the Palestinian Authority restore order.

Earlier in her visit, Rice praised Sharon痴 steadfastness and endorsed his demand that the Palestinian Authority meet its obligations under the 途oad map・peace plan to crack down on terrorism.

But she added, 典he Israelis have very important road-map obligations, and we will talk about that, too.・

的srael should do nothing to prejudge final status or the outlines of a final settlement,・Rice said, an apparent allusion to Israel痴 expansion of West Bank settlements and, perhaps, its construction of a security fence that dips into West Bank land that the Palestinians claim.

The security fence won praise from a different corner of U.S. politics ・Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-N.Y.), who was visiting Israel with her husband and daughter, Chelsea, to attend memorial events on the 10th anniversary of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin痴 assassination.

的 have to support the Israeli government decision to use this as a means to try and prevent terrorists from coming across,・she said. 典he Palestinian people have to help prevent terrorism.・P> 典hey have to change attitudes,・she continued. 的t has to start with the Palestinian Authority and go throughout the entire society.・

Former President Clinton also had words of support for Sharon and his 殿stonishingly courageous withdrawal from Gaza.・P> But he warned Israel not to continue with unilateral measures such as the Gaza withdrawal.

鄭s a strategy for the long term, the idea that Israel can proceed unilaterally forever, without a cooperative relationship with a successful Palestinian state, it seems to me highly premature to make that concession,・he said.

Bob, that would be a great story, if Osama had actually BEEN responsible for those deaths. That's 2000+ that can be added to the glorious PNAC vision of conquest.
Kathleen, I am on the west coast. Unfortunately I am on the east side of the Sierra's, a long ride from SF. I wish I could meet them though. They sound like truly amazing people.

handy cap: a hat that is ready to go!

DMR: "Now, dont get so excited, remember, Reagan got in threw the nation into recession to stop inflation, but by the end of the presidency, he was a hero."

Excited? Moi? But seeing you reach back 22 years for solace, it's hard not to be.

Seems the conned cons are indeed in their last throes. Kinda sad, really.

#256
handicap

Any one have any suggestions for contacts for Peggy and Art to get more exposure while they are in S.FRan. I did get Neil Conan of Talk of the Nation to have Peggy on as a guest and also on the Diane Rehm show after one of her first trips over to Iraq.

They do not push for big exposure in the media. But they do not object if others do it for them.

Does anyone have any media contacts or suggestions for media outlets out there that might be willing to do a radio show with them?

Back to main topic:

It is reported that US did not bomb a safehouse, as is the standard stand-off topic, as in prior action along the syrian border. That suggests US knew there was a big fish at this house, and like Kuday and Husay (saddam's son), the US went in standing up, so that remains could be identified. The house was hotly defended indicating a big fish, otherwise they usually surrender when surrounded. Zaquari's family dis-own him, and Jordan intel service is "on-it" now that Zaquari threatened the King. Any other news? Down playing and no confirmation is coming from the DOD.

baf
you got your handy cap on I see... did you get that advice column going yet?

dear baf,
I'm almost positive that islamo fascists are breathing down my neck! I'm terrified that they will instigate another terror attack right in the middle of the exact same terror drill at the exact same time! just like last time! wow, if it wasn't for my incredible tax-cut I would really be up the creek with one wooden leg, as regarding those invisible propagandists! whatever should I do?

oh reagan was a hero alright! what were his immortal heroic words?

"uh...I can't recall."

My Story (Mike Krause)

For two years I served in Iraq, and for two years my Mother held vigil with Fox News as her guide. I am sure she was certain that my name would flash on the screen at any moment as a casualty.

Surely the odds of surviving 730 days in Iraq would catch up with her only son, she thought. If you were to look around the rest of the subdivision, you would probably see plenty of families who were oh, so sympathetic to Soldiers and families dealing with this war. They would give fake hugs and smile bravely, and reassure my Mom that everything will be okay.

It's easy to say things are okay when your son is in college down the road.
Welcome to Operation Iraqi Freedom III.

Two days ago, I became a civilian.

There is a bizarre mix of emotions to deal with when you have been constantly on guard since March 2003. There is the constant hyper-alertness, the butterflies that come into your stomach at loud noises and sirens, and the stereotypical sleeplessness at night.

There is my seething anger at the evening news, as some anchorman flippantly says, "The attack happened just west of Baghdad. Two American Soldiers were killed." I want to scream at the television. I want to stop the newscast and make them show those dead Soldier’≥ pictures, and hold them there until every person watching has them burned into their minds forever.

I also struggle with resenting my peers who chose not to serve. I grit my teeth as I pass every college-age civilian male walking around in the mall in his long hair and trucker hat, young and care-free in a way that none of us will ever be again. I want to take him down to the recruiting station andlook onas he signs up to take the spot of some stop-loss’•d Soldier.

*****end of clip*****

If you are able to set aside your foul mouths and your jingoistic jargon for a moment and just read what the military service men and women are saying.

They eat armchair generals for lunch and pass BM's with more reality and substance than all of your pro-war sloganeering.

Pathetic small minded pro-war trolls. If you are man or woman enough read the whole thing then check into the blogs and stories at operationtruth.com you might just learn something.

I will pray for you.

capt

CIA Veterans Condemn Torture By Jason Vest, Government Executive

...Although outrage has focused on the existence and symbolism of the black sites, comparatively little attention has been paid to the concerns -- if not outright objections -- of many distinguished CIA veterans about these sites and the use of torture in general. It's not just that such behavior is largely impractical, they say; it's that even by the morally ambiguous standards of espionage and covert action, the abuse is simply wrong.

Some perennially high-profile retired CIA officers like Bob Baer, Frank Anderson, and Vincent Cannistraro recently spoke out to Knight Ridder about their opposition to torture on practical grounds (Cannistraro said that detainees will "say virtually anything to end their torment"). But over the past 18 months, several lesser-known former officers have been trying, publicly and privately, to convince both the agency and the public that torture and other unduly coercive questioning tactics are morally wrong as well.

Speaking at a College of William and Mary forum last year, for example, Burton L. Gerber, a decorated Moscow station chief who retired in 1995 after 39 years with the CIA, surprised some in the audience when he said he opposes torture "because it corrupts the society that tolerates it." This is a view, he confirmed in an interview with National Journal last week, that is rooted in Albert Camus's assertion in Preface to Algerian Reports that torture, "even when accepted in the interest of realism and efficacy," represents "a flouting of honor that serves no purpose but to degrade" a nation in its own eyes and the world's. "The reason I believe that torture corrupts the torturers and society," Gerber says, "is that a standard is changed, and that new standard that's acceptable is less than what our nation should stand for. I think the standards in something like this are crucial to the identity of America as a free and just society."
---------------------
It corrupts the society that tolerates it.

Message to all TROLLS:

This is, "soko" I will be leaving this site for good.

That welching David Corn, shorted me on my pay last week. He said I had not been, and I quote, "stirring up my corn nuts enough".

Apparently he thinks I have not been signing on enough to rustle their feathers. I think one of you guys must have taken my job.

Anyway, to whomever got my job, I am not mad at you. I am, however kind of pissed at David.

I think I did a good job for him in getting the corn nuts stirred.

So long,
yours truly,
soko

Capt; If your post #29 link is even half accurate, we are in BIG trouble, I was right in the thought the Chimpy gang belongs behind bars for all types of UN AMERICAN activities. Now we can see how this BS propagates with the support of right wing bloggers like the kind we have seen today. God (pick yer own)help us.

Den,

I am here to tell you, if half of my fears are justified we are WAY down a rabbit hole.

I really hope I am wrong but . . .

capt

#269

If our country was truly a democracy with a liberal constitutional government, we would have a draft so that all social classes and races may take part in this war.

The problem is that Cheney would not have gotten us into this war with a draft, because we would have debated it because the costs would fall where they should. Instead Cheney took advantage of using an army that is basically corporate. Sure its "government" directed, but like corporations it markets its recruits with various enticements and advertising, and it is funded on government subsidies like many corporations get either directly or through tax breaks or other shenagians.

We have an army that sadly has lost all of the original roots of the minutemen army.

#253 its kind of cute, but simple...

don't you think the vision 'sound bite' you gave BUSH and ISLAMO-FASCISTS are equivalent with just different words? The Islamist Jihad wants to bring what they see as civil to the middle east, we just disagree with them, but we both are willing to kill for our vision rather than die for it.

Jeane, have you put on your handy cap yet?

#276
Unbelievable.

271

I wasn't me, I do this for fun.

David,

If you want to pay me though, I'll take it.

Yelnat's #274

You mean #269? My Story (Mike Krause)??

Are you just using it as a sounding board?

Frankly you are a bit hard to follow, but whatever.

capt

Capt; too bad, it's such a nice planet too. Lots of good people are paying and have paid for Chimpy's shenanigans as well as his forefathers corrupt money grubbing. Chimpy vs. Iraq, evil vs evil, guess who wins eh? Wheres good in all this?

Having read TimL's posts I have come to the conclusion that he is deep in denial. First he claims that anything good for America is bad for Liberals. That is the rankest piece of nonsense I have read in a long time and demonstrates gross bigotry. Next he quotes Panetta's statement that he was privy to intelligence several years prior to the war in Iraq and that at that time Saddam may have had WMDs. The time right before we attacked Iraq is the time that counts. At that point the UN inspectors, the guys in position to have their eyeballs on the matter, said no such weapons existed. In 1998 Saddam may have had something, in 2003 he had zilch but Bush's neocons hyped WMDs and Al Quaeda connections up the wazoo.

TimL please go back and take some classes in logic and rhetoric. Repetition of nonsense becomes only politicians on their way to being lame ducks.